Preamble

The House met at Half past Two o'Clock

PRAYERS

[Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair]

TRANSPORT BILL (PETITION)

Brigadier Mackeson: I beg to ask leave to present a Petition, signed by 55,000 persons engaged in or using road transport, asking that the proposals for nationalisation of this industry may be rejected. The Petitioners say they fear that under a system of road haulage owned and controlled by the Government many road haulage contractors and their employees will lose their means of livelihood, and that they believe the service will be less efficient and more expensive and harmful to the trade of this country. The Petition concludes with the following Prayer:
We, your Petitioners, humbly pray your honourable House to reject any proposals, which may hereafter be submitted to Parliament for approval or for legislation, with the object of replacing private enterprise in the provision of road transport, by a nationalised or Government-controlled system of transport. Your Petitioners, as in duty bound, will ever pray.
To lie upon the Table.

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMANY

Criminal Charges (Control Officials)

Mr. Pritt: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs on whose responsibility four officials of the Control Commission for Germany, whose names have been given to him, who were charged on 17th March, 1947, with conspiracy, are still at work and exercising authority over subordinate officials who may have to give evidence against them; and whether he is

satisfied that this is consistent with good discipline and efficient administration.

The Minister of State (Mr. McNeil): These officials have been suspended from duty following the preliminary hearing of their cases and committal for trial.

Mr. Pritt: On what date were they suspended?

Mr. McNeil: They were suspended immediately after the inquiry by the magistrate, and, within my recollection, they were suspended on 21st April

Mr. Pritt: Will the right hon. Gentleman look into this further, because I have evidence of eye-witnesses that they were working in the Control Office, and were drawing their salaries until a week ago?

Mr. McNeil: I think that the hon. and learned Member would agree that it would be unfair to suspend them until they had been committed for trial. However, I am very willing to consider any evidence which the hon. and learned Member has.

Mr. Pickthorn: Can it be explained to the House how eye-witnesses could know that these persons were drawing their salaries?

Sir Waldron Smithers: is the right hon. Gentleman aware that this is a typical instance of the behaviour of some members of the Control Commission, who, by their behaviour, have lost the respect and confidence of the German people?

3. Mr. Pritt: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why the skilled engineer who was put to sort letters in the Control Commission for Germany, in February last, for two to four weeks only is still engaged on the work and only sorting about eight letters daily; how long he is to continue this work; and whether steps will be taken to clear up the position, since this engineer was sent to this work by an officer against whom he may have to give evidence on a criminal charge made against the officer.

Mr. McNeil: This officer was taken from his duties in the statistical and information rooms at Hanover last month, so that he could give evidence in Dusseldorf. He was released from attendance at court towards the end of March, and has since been on leave in -this country. I am assured that he was not sent to Hanover by an officer against whom he may have had to give evidence, but by the head of his branch.

Mr. Pritt: Would the right hon. Gentleman say how much longer he intends to cost the country £1,000 a year in allowing this man to sort eight letters a day, when he is a skilled engineer?

Mr. McNeil: I have already pointed out that he is not at present engaged on that task.

Mr. Pritt: Will the right hon. Gentleman accept it from me that he is not on leave in this country, but went back a few days ago to sort his eight letters a day?

Mr. McNeil: I should be delighted to consider any evidence which the hon. and learned Gentleman has to offer, but I am surprised that he has immediate information about what this engineer is doing.

Mr. Bramall: Is my right hon. Friend aware that this man was sent there by the head of his branch, who is one of the officers against whom the man preferred charges?

Commander Noble: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether this engineer is working a five-day week?

Friedrich Berg (Charges)

Mr. Pritt: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what firearms and other prohibited or restricted goods were found on the premises of Fritz Berg, Altena, when they were recently searched; with what offences he has since been charged and why he is still in possession of two motor cars and in control of his factories.

Mr. McNeil: Friedrich Berg was found to be in possession of three sporting rifles, a Mauser automatic pistol, and quantities of ammunition. A large amount of rationed food, both Allied and German, and Allied spirits and cigarettes were also found. He has been charged with conspiracy to commit an offence in connection with purchase of cutlery; possession of excess quantities of rationed foods; unauthorised possession of property belonging to the Allied forces; unauthorised possession of fire-arms and ammunition; corruption of a person acting under authority of Allied forces; and two offences under the Military Government Notice of Control and Allocation of Consumer Goods dated 7th April, 1946. The two motorcars said to be in his possession are his private property. He is no longer in control of his factories, as he was removed

from office on 3rd March, 1947, under the denazification regulations.

Mr. Pritt: Is it really satisfactory that he and his wife should be driving about in these two motorcars, including periodically attending hearings before this trial?

Mr. McNeil: The hon. and learned Member will note that my information is that he is in possession of motorcars, but I have caused most immediate inquiries to be made whether he is entitled to use them. If there is any reason why he should not use them, I will take care to see that he does not.

Mr. Pritt: Will the right hon. Gentleman inquire particularly into the fact that every time he comes up for another hearing he drives away in one car and his wife in another?

Mr. Bramall: Am I right in thinking that the possession of firearms is a capital offence in Germany, and can investigations be made into how a person charged with a capital offence was allowed bail?

Coal Production

Mr. William Shepherd: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what effect the new coal agreement will have upon German industrial output.

Mr. McNeil: In reaching this agreement the needs of German industry were fully considered. The agreement is designed to secure an equitable distribution of increased production in Germany, and in those European countries dependent on German coal, and it ensures that increases in German coal production will be shared equitably between these internal and external needs.

Denazification Questionnaire

Mr. Bramall: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs why, in the latest questionnaire for denazification purposes, Germans in the British zone are asked how they voted in 1932.

The Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Ernest Bevin): There has been no change in the questionnaire used for denazification; the question to which my hon. Friend refers is designed to discover whether the German concerned had Nazi sympathies at a time when it was still possible in Germany to indicate one's political preferences under conditions of relative freedom and secrecy.

Mr. Bramall: Does my right hon. Friend think it is a good guarantee to the Germans that they should support a democratic system when they have no guarantee that in a few year's' time they may not be asked how they voted in 1946?

Mr. Bevin: I agree, and I think that this matter wants looking into.

Mr. Vane: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what effective check he has to prove whether the replies to this question are correct or not?

Mr. Bevin: I have said that this matter needs looking into afresh.

Movement From Poland

Mr. M. Philips Price: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what is the reason for refusing the entry of Germans recently from Poland to the British zone of Germany; and whether the Polish authorities have given any indication of the number of Germans they still wish to leave their western territories.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he is aware that the Polish Government has given notice to deport a further 400,000 Germans from Polish territory; and what is His Majesty's Government's policy in regard to accepting any of these deportees in the British zone of Germany.

Mr. Bevin: The organised movement into the British zone of Germany of Germans to be expelled under the Potsdam Agreement from the territories now administered by Poland was suspended by the Control Commission on 23rd December last because of the severe weather. The question of resuming the operation has been deferred, as it was proposed to review the whole question of population transfers during the Moscow conference. Unfortunately, no agreement was reached.
The Polish authorities, at the Council of Foreign Ministers' Deputies in January, indicated that 550,000 Germans still remain in their western territories whom they wish removed to the western zones. They have recently asked that the movement to the British zone should be resumed but no official figures have been given. Our commitment is to receive million of these Germans into the British zone. This figure has probably

been reached already, and before we can agree to accept any more it is necessary to assess the total number already received either by transfer or by infiltration so that we can calculate what balance, if any. remains.

Mr. Price: Has my right hon. Friend made it plain to the Polish Government that further expulsions from their zone into our zone will make economic conditions there more and more difficult?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, Sir, but it is not only a question of numbers, but who should be expelled. If we are to have merely refugees and unemployable people, and no corresponding productive people, the situation will become very difficult.

Mr. Bramall: Can my right hon. Friend say what proportion of those expelled have been men or employable women?

Mr. Bevin: I should like notice of that question.

Food Supplies

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs for how long he expects it will be necessary to maintain the reduction of the bread ration from 5 lb. to 3 lb. weekly in the British zone of Germany; and whether the hardship thus inflicted can be offset by stepping up supplies of other food. stuffs.

Mr. Bevin: The reduction which was adopted on the recommendation of the German Executive Committee as a prudent measure during a period of low stocks, and which applies to both the British and the United States zones, has at present been authorised only for the first week of the ration period. It is hoped that the full issue will be made up later in May. In the past potatoes have been used when necessary to supplement shortages of grain, but these are also in short supply.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: While there are these shortages, will my right hon. Friend take all steps to make clear to the German people the reason for them?

Mr. Bevin: That is being done. They are fully alive to the situation.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether ha is aware that supplies of milk to civilians in the British zone are almost


nil; and that meat, fats and potatoes are in such short supply that the normal ration cannot be honoured; and if he will make a statement.

Mr. Bevin: Milk has been in short supply in the British zone but it has been possible to meet the needs of priority consumers with a fair degree of success. The position should improve with the start of the new grazing season. Difficulties in providing full rations of meat, fats and potatoes have been largely due to the failure of the local German authorities to collect and distribute these foodstuffs equitably throughout the British and American zones. The matter is under consideration in conjunction with the American authorities.

Oral Answers to Questions — BRITISH PROPAGANDA, EUROPE

Mr. Geoffrey Cooper: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what directions have been issued to Press officers and other officials representative of His Majesty's Government in France, Italy and Greece, to counteract subversive talk and the antagonistic attitude adopted towards the Government by British nationals now in those countries.

Mr. McNeil: No special directive has been issued, but Press officers and representatives are kept fully supplied with current and background information

Mr. Cooper: Has my right hon. Friend's attention been called to an article by Alan Moorhead, which appeared in the "Observer" on Sunday, 20th April, regarding damaging talk by his officials abroad, and which appeared to include officials of his Department? Will he have this serious matter investigated?

Mr. McNeil: I have seen the article, and I have taken some personal steps in the matter.

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: Is it suggested that it is illegal for British nationals abroad, in their private capacity, to hold views critical of His Majesty's Government in this country?

Mr. McNeil: No one suggested that it was an offence to hold views critical or otherwise of this Government, but, clearly, it may be an irregularity if an officer commissioned by His Majesty gives expression to such views.

Mr. Nicholson: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the Question refers to subversive talk and the antagonistic attitude adopted towards the Government by British nationals? It does not say anything about officers.

Mr. McNeil: The hon. Member will have noted that I was answering a supplementary which was put to me by my hon. Friend the Member for West Middlesbrough (Mr. Cooper), who asked me whether my attention had been called to a certain newspaper article.

Mr. Nicholson: I thought the right hon. Gentleman was answering the main Question, rather than the supplementary.

Mr. McNeil: I usually answer the supplementaries which are put to me.

Major Tufton Beamish: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what steps are being taken to counteract the subversive talk and the antagonistic attitude adopted towards the Government by Socialist Members of Parliament when they travel abroad?

Oral Answers to Questions — CAMP, EL ARISH

Mr. Vane: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how many Yugoslays are still accommodated in the camp at El Arish; and what is the plan for their future.

Mr. McNeil: None, Sir. This camp was closed down in 1945.

Oral Answers to Questions — KOREA (JOINT COMMISSION)

Mr. Thomas Reid: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how international affairs have developed in Korea since the Moscow Agreement of 1945 was made by which Korea was to be placed under Four Power Trusteeship for five years and under a provisional Government in which Koreans were to share, prior to the country becoming an independent State.

Mr. McNeil: Under the terms of the Moscow Agreement a joint United States —Soviet Commission was duly convened in Korea in March, 1946. A deadlock was reached over the question of consultation with Korean democratic organisations and the Commission was adjourned sine die on 8th May, 1946, when the Soviet delegate was recalled on the orders


of the Soviet Command in Northern Korea. Mr. Marshall has proposed to Mr. Molotov that the Commission should be reconvened, and the latter has replied agreeing that it should meet again on 28th May.

Oral Answers to Questions — INTERNATIONAL RELIEF ORGANISATION

Mrs. Leah Manning: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether I.R.O. will be ready to take over its responsibilities in June when the work of U.N.R.R.A. closes down.

Mr. McNeil: I would refer my hon. Friend to the reply given on 28th April to my hon. Friend the Member for Swindon (Mr. T. Reid) to which I have nothing to add.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: Can my right hon. Friend say whether it is true that the International Relief Organisation cannot come into operation until 15 nations have ratified it, and that, so far, only two have ratified it? Can he also say whether it is true that it cannot come into operation until 75 per cent. of its budget is guaranteed, and that, so far, none of its budget has been guaranteed?

Mr. McNeil: I am sorry that my hon. Friend is a little inaccurate, because he is usually most accurate. My recollection is that the number of countries is 12, not 15, but the facts as he stated them are essentially correct.

Mr. Kenneth Lindsay: Can the right hon. Gentleman say what prospect he holds out from a meeting which, I believe, is to be held next Friday?

Mr. McNeil: Perhaps we had better let the meeting take care of itself. The attitude of H.M. Government is well known, and we have taken every appropriate course to try to ensure that this organisation will have a legal standing.

Mrs. Manning: In view of the fact that the I.R.O. is not ready to take over, can my right hon. Friend say what provisions will be made for displaced persons and refugees in the interim?

Mr. McNeil: My hon. Friend may be assured that this worry is not one of which the Government have been unaware, and that months ago we made alternative

arrangements which, however, I hope we shall not have to call upon.

Oral Answers to Questions — INTERNATIONAL CHILDREN'S FUND

Mrs. Manning: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what share this country will take in the work of the United Nations International Children's Emergency Fund.

Mr. McNeil: His Majesty's Goverment have promised their support to the Inter- national Children's Emergency Fund. The administration of the Fund is at present discussing with voluntary and other organisations in this country and with His Majesty's Government the question of assistance to the Fund, including an appeal for voluntary contributions

Oral Answers to Questions — HELIGOLAND (DEMOLITIONS)

Commander Noble: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs how much iron and steel and other manufactured material was destroyed with the blowing up of Heligoland.

Mr. McNeil: Apart from explosives, about 1,200 tons of iron, steel and manufactured material, of which 85 per cent. consisted of guns and emplacements, were destroyed in the recent demolitions of fortifications and warlike stores.

Oral Answers to Questions — EGYPT (BRITISH MILITARY MISSION)

Brigadier Mackeson: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what intimation he has received from the Government of Egypt regarding the future of the British Military Mission in Egypt.

Mr. Bevin: The Egyptian Prime Minister wrote to His Majesty's Ambassador on 2nd March intimating that the Egyptian Government intended to dispense with the services of the Mission in two stage "in the course of this year."

Oral Answers to Questions — POLISH GOVERNMENT (BRITISH RELATIONS)

Sir W. Smithers: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs in view of the fact that the announced policy of His Majesty's Government was that Britain's


future attitude would be determined by the performance of the new Polish Government, what the attitude of His Majesty's Government now is.

Mr. Bevin: His Majesty's Government are continuing to judge by results and are discussing outstanding questions with the Polish Government with a desire to reach solutions in the interests of the people of both countries.

Sir W. Smithers: Is -the right hon. Gentleman aware that I have received first-hand information that these elections were very unfair, and that some of the Polish subjects who are anti-Soviet have been victimised; and will he do all that he can, as we realise he has done lately, to maintain the announced policy of His Majesty's Government?

Mr. Bevin: I shall do my best. I would remind the hon Gentleman and the House that when we have had a great trouble as we have had in Europe, it is very difficult to settle all these problems at once. The Polish population has fallen from 35 million to 22 million of whom over eight million are dead.

Mrs. Manning: Is my right hon. Friend aware that part of the performance of the new Polish Government has been a very agreeable trade treaty with this country, which brings some hundreds of thousands of tons of coal here?

Mr. Bevin: I do not know about the amount of coal. But we are discussing all these things in a friendly spirit in the hope that we can bring relationships back to a proper basis.

Mr. Warbey: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the recent amnesty in Poland is an indication that the new Polish Government desire to proceed towards a more liberal and democratic regime?

Mr. Bevin: I think that the best service which can be rendered to Poland now is that every Pole, whether a displaced person or in this country, should immediately make up his mind to go home and take part in the reconstruction of Poland.

Oral Answers to Questions — GREECE (FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE)

Mr. Beswick: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether on the

cessation of British financial aid to Greece, His Majesty's Government advised the Greek Government to make any application for further financial assistance to the International Bank for Reconstruction and Development.

Mr. Bevin: His Majesty's Government have certainly encouraged the Greek Government to consider applying to the International Bank for a loan in connection with their reconstruction programme. I understand that the Greek Government have in fact already informed the Bank of their intention to submit a formal loan application when their plans for reconstruction projects have been completed.

Oral Answers to Questions — MOSCOW CONFERENCE

Professor Savory: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs when he hopes to be in a position to make a statement on the results of the Council of Foreign Ministers just held in Moscow.

Mr. Bevin: I am hoping to be able to give an account of the Moscow Conference if a debate can be arranged at a convenient date through the usual channels.

Oral Answers to Questions — AUSTRIA (GERMAN ASSETS)

Professor Savory: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether he will draw the attention of the Control Commission for Austria to the fact that 200 factories have now been taken over and are being operated by the U.S.S.R.; that the Soviet confiscations made under the head of German assets now amount to 25 per cent. of the whole national economy; and whether instructions will be given to our representative on the Allied Control Commission to take action in order to prevent the financial ruin of Austria

Mr. Bevin: The hon. Member will be aware that the question of German assets in Austria was discussed at the recent meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers. Although no agreement could be reached, it was decided to set up a Commission of representatives of the four Powers to deal with all outstanding questions of the Austrian Treaty, and a committee of experts to examine the particular question of German assets under Article 35 and the related question of United Nations nationals' property under Article 42 on a


basis of concrete facts. The hon. Member will appreciate that in these circumstances the issue of new instructions to the British Element of the Allied Commission is unnecessary.

Professor Savory: Has the right hon. Gentleman had time to read a statement by the American Secretary of State to the effect that if these exactions continue it will be impossible for Austria to maintain her independent existence?

Mr. Bevin: I think that I have made the position clear in Moscow. The difficulty about this matter is trying to settle it on the basis of a formula. I have tried to settle it on the basis of the actual facts.

Mr. Warbey: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the terms of reference of the committee of experts include the power to investigate the changes of ownership in individual property and the conditions under which ownership will change?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, they can go in and have presented to them all the relevant facts. One principle I set out for is that I do not think that other United Nations nationals ought to suffer as a result of the depredations of Hitler.

Mr. Wilson Harris: Can the right hon Gentleman say what is the earliest date that the Foreign Ministers are likely to be able to receive the reports of these committees and come to some decision about Austria?

Mr. Bevin: The decision was to do it without delay. Sometimes, when we fix a date, we are like the man who used to prophesy the end of the world; if it (lid not happen he altered the date.

Oral Answers to Questions — RUMANIA (ARRESTS)

Professor Savory: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether, in view of the signature of the treaty with Rumania, his attention has been called to the wholesale arrests of members of the opposition parties which have been taking place since the middle of March; whether he is aware that prisoners are held in the closest detention although no evidence has been brought against them; and whether he will give instructions to His Majesty's Minister at

Bucharest to protest against, this violation of Article Three of the Treaty, which has been already signed, although not yet ratified.

Mr. Bevin: I am aware that arrests of members of the Rumanian Opposition parties have been taking place recently. His Majesty's Government are watching the situation carefully, and should it appear that there has been a breach of Article 3 of the Peace Treaty appropriate action will be taken.

Professor Savory: Is the right hon. Gentleman not aware that for many months past the Rumanian Government have flouted the Agreements of Potsdam and Yalta, and cannot something be done now to prevent her from setting at naught a Treaty which she so recently signed?

Mr. Bevin: I would point out that the Treaty has not yet been ratified.

Mr. Bing: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the continued imprisonment of political opponents without trial is entirely justified if the declaration of the Northern Ireland Government is accepted, and would it, therefore, be possible for my right hon. Friend to send a copy of the Northern Ireland Regulations for the internment of political opponents, together with their justification, to these various Governments so that if they desire to imprison their political opponents they can do so in accordance with democratic precedent?

Mr. Speaker: rose—

Mr. Nicholson: With regard to Rumania, this is a great human problem causing much suffering; is the right hon. Gentleman aware that there is great sympathy in this country with. Rumania and her sufferings, and attempts are being made to raise a fund to help the starving children of Rumania? Will he convey to the Rumanian Government that these attempts will be prejudiced if there is persecution in Rumania?

Mr. Bevin: I think that all Governments should try to put an end to this war disease and postwar disease as quickly as they can.

Sir R. Ross: Is it in Order, Mr. Speaker, for an hon. Member, under the guise of asking a question on foreign affairs, to try to throw mud at parts of the United Kingdom?

Mr. Speaker: I hoped that I had made it clear when I rose to interrupt the hon. Member that his question had not my approval.

Oral Answers to Questions — SPAIN (TRIAL)

Mr. Driberg: asked the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs what reply he has received to his inquiries about the imprisonment and sentencing to death by General Franco's Government of a number of young Spanish anti-Fascists, some of whom are i6 years of age; and what further action he will take.

Mr. Bevin: On 7th April, His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires at Madrid reported that these Spaniards had not yet been tried but were charged with having placed bombs in front of food shops last November, as a result of which four persons were injured, one seriously. In the light of this information His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires was instructed to arrange for a representative of the Embassy to be present at the trial and also to investigate a report that one of the prisoners had been ill-treated.
His Majesty's Chargé d'Affaires has now reported that an official statement was issued yesterday by the Spanish Government which confirmed the fact that these Spaniards had not yet been tried and that the report that they had been sentenced to death was therefore inaccurate. According to the statement only two of the nine individuals were under i8 at the time of their arrest. The statement went on to say that in the case of delinquents who were only 17, their age would be regarded as an extenuating circumstance under Spanish Law and that this principle would be applied in the present case. The statement added that the trial of these prisoners by court martial was expected to take place within the next few weeks.

Mr. Driberg: While thanking my right hon. Friend for his full reply and for the action which he has taken, with the obviously beneficial results that have followed therefrom, might I ask him if he will keep his eye on this trial?

Mr. Bevin: Yes, I certainly will, but I think it proves the wisdom of my action in resisting the withdrawal of our representatives from Madrid.

Mr. Driberg: Is my right hon. Friend aware that nobody suggested withdrawing

diplomatic representatives from Madrid without at the same time taking economic action, such as oil sanctions, which would have brought Franco down by now?

Oral Answers to Questions — AFRICAN COLONIES

Oil Seeds Commission Report

Mr. Erroll: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies on what date the Report of the Oil Seeds Commission to West Africa will be published; and, in view of the importance of the subject at the present time, if he will ensure that publication is pressed forward rapidly.

The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Creech Jones): The report is published today, and copies are available at the Vote Office.

Teachers' Salaries, Nigeria

Mr. Morley: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies if he will take the appropriate action to see that satisfactory scales of salaries to non-Government teachers comparable to those of civil servants and Government teachers are paid in Nigeria.

Mr. Creech Jones: The salary scales of non-Government teachers in Nigeria are of course a matter primarily for settlement locally between the parties concerned. I understand that negotiations are at present proceeding in Nigeria.

Mrs. Manning: Is there any likelihood of the salaries paid to the Commission's teachers being made approximately the same as those of Government teachers?

Mr. Creech Jones: I think the magnitude of this problem must be appreciated, and that it is likely to involve the Nigerian Government in an additional expenditure of £4 million.

Mr. Morley: Is my right hon. Friend aware that non-Government parties are not represented on the committee which is considering this matter, and will he secure representation for them on this committee?

Mr. Creech Jones: There was a meeting, I think, about 10 days ago at which the representatives of all sections were present.

Groundnuts Scheme (Railway Needs)

Mr. Dodds-Parker: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies (1) what action, having regard to the continued inadequacy of rolling stock on the Central Line in Tanganyika to carry present commitments of goods traffic, it is proposed to take to serve the large scale requirements of the groundnut scheme;
(2) whether he is aware of the concern among commercial users of the Tanganyika Central Line about the situation likely to arise when they have to compete for wagon space with the Governmentsponsored scheme; and what provision will be made for their goods traffic.

Mr. Creech Jones: I am fully satisfied with the liaison between the Tanganyika Government and the managing agents for the groundnuts scheme on questions of railway equipment. Forty-seven box wagons have been on order to meet the ordinary goods traffic from the Central Line and orders for a further 90 have been placed to cover the extra requirements of the groundnuts scheme. About 250 wagons of miscellaneous types are also now being obtained from surplus stocks in the Middle East for the Central Line.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: Can the right hon. Gentleman give an assurance that local interests will not be entirely prejudiced by the Government's action over the groundnuts scheme, which after all is finally for the benefit of this country?

Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir. The producers are already there who are engaged in the production of the vital needs both for their own and for this country, and their railway requirements are very much in our minds and will not be prejudiced.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he will give an assurance that plans for harbour and wharfage development in Dar-es-Salaam will keep pace with the large-scale demands of the groundnut scheme and also serve the growing needs of existing commercial undertakings.

Mr. Creech Jones: The number of cranes at Dar-es-Salaam has recently been increased by two and a further three will shortly be added. Extensions to transit sheds are being planned. It is considered

that all traffic during the next few years can be handled over the existing quay, although its capacity will be taxed. Extensions to the quay can be undertaken only after progress has been made with other more urgent work.

Oral Answers to Questions — PALESTINE

Terrorist Damage, Haifa

Sir W. Smithers: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what was the cost of the damage resulting from the oil installation fire at Haifa caused by terrorist activity; and what steps he is taking to raise the money in Palestine.

Mr. Creech Jones: No accurate estimate of the cost is available, but the Shell Oil Company, whose installations were those damaged in this terrorist outrage, has through its representatives in Palestine expressed the opinion that the ultimate cost of restoration, including the value of the oil stocks destroyed, will be not less than £400,000. No financial liability for damage done by terrorists is accepted by the Palestine Government. The question of possible steps to recover the cost of this damage is still under consideration.

Sir W. Smithers: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the best means of restraining terrorists is by means of a communal fine and insistence on its being paid?

Mr. Creech Jones: The whole of this problem is now under consideration.

Illegal Immigrants (Cost)

34. Sir Ralph Glyn: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what is the total number of Jews now accommodated in the camps at Cyprus; what is the cost of these camps to date; how much does it cost a month to administer them; for what number of persons were these camps originally designed; what steps it is proposed to take this year to accommodate the increasing flow of Jews to Palestine; and whether the executive and legislative councils have made any representations to His Majesty's Government on these matters.

Mr. Creech Jones: The total number of illegal Jewish immigrants now accommodated in the camps in Cyprus is 14,434. The estimate of £1,900,000 given in my


reply to the hon. Member on 17th December as the cost of the camps up to 31st March, 1947, has proved to be excessive, but I am not yet in a position to give an exact figure of expenditure up to that date. The cost of administration for the numbers now in the camp is approximately £45,000 a month. In addition £50,758 has been spent up to date on local purchases for welfare purposes. The camps were originally designed to accommodate 10,000 persons, but have since been extended. His Majesty's Government have under constant review the provision of accommodation to meet the number of arrivals expected. No representations on these matters have been made by the Executive Council to His Majesty's Government.

Sir R. Glyn: Would the right hon. Gentleman say how much of this expenditure falls on the taxpayer here?

Mr. Creech Jones: This expenditure falls on the Palestinian Government.

Mr. S. Silverman: In view of the fact that this figure of 14,000 is very much below the figure of 100,000 which every investigating authority has fixed as the figure which can be permitted to enter Palestine without affecting the political and economic balance, would it not be cheaper for Palestine and this country to allow these 14,000 people into Palestine now?

Mr. Creech Jones: That raises the whole problem of illegal immigration which is a different question from that on the Order Paper.

Brigadier Low: Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether this cost includes the cost for the British soldiers who have to guard and administer these camps?

Mr. Creech Jones: No, that is a military charge.

Mr. Janner: Is my right hon. Friend aware that the Palestinian Jewish settlers themselves are prepared and anxious to help these people to regain their moral and mental status and are prepared to pay in order to see that these people shall be restored in this way? Will he take steps to give them the opportunity of doing that?

Mr. Creech Jones: I am fully aware of the point. As I have said, the supplementary questions now put to me relate

to the whole problem of illegal immigration which is apart altogether from the problem of the camps in Cyprus.

Mr. Manningham-Buller: Are illegal immigrants given a priority for legal admission into Palestine over the women, orphans and children still remaining in camps in Europe?

Mr. Creech Jones: There are admissions of 750 a month which form part of the quota for Palestine.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: How many British soldiers are employed altogether in Cyprus?

Mr. Creech Jones: I shall require notice of that question.

Administration Costs

Sir R. Glyn: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies the present revenue and expenditure of Palestine; to what extent is the cost of administration, including expenses, arising from maintaining large military, naval and air services in that country, borne by taxpayers in Palestine and this country, respectively; and what are the sums involved.

Mr. Creech Jones: The estimated revenue and expenditure of Palestine for 1946–47 are £25½ million and £22 million respectively, but this estimate does not take into account several major items of expenditure such as the cost of the Cyprus camps, possibly amounting in all to £3 million, which will fall to be met from Palestine funds. The cost of civil administration, including the police, is borne by Palestine. The cost of military, naval and air forces is borne by Imperial funds with the exception of a contribution of £42,797 by Palestine in respect of the Trans-Jordan Frontier Force. Questions regarding the cost of military, naval and air services should be addressed to the Ministers concerned, but I would draw the hon. Member's attention to the answer given on 6th March to the hon. Member for Gateshead (Mr. Zilliacus) by my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer.

Major Legge-Bourke: Will the Minister say if either of the first two figures he has given includes the cost of the administration of the Palestine railways?

Mr. Creech Jones: I could not say without notice.

Mr. Wilkes: Does not the Minister agree that the last answer provides an admirable illustration for His Majesty's Government that while it is always more honourable for any Government to keep its promises it is also sometimes cheaper as well?

Sir Ronald Ross: Is not the basis of taxation per head in Palestine a good deal lighter than in this country, and how large is the bill for Armed Forces compared with the entire revenue of Palestine?

Mr. Creech Jones: I should require notice concerning the amount of expenditure on the Services. Questions regarding the Armed Forces should be addressed to my Service colleagues.

Sir R. Ross: Could not the Minister answer the first part of my question with regard to the rate of taxation?

Mr. Creech Jones: I think that Palestine is heavily taxed at the moment, but how this compares with taxation here I cannot say.

Mr. Austin: Could not immense economy he effected and greater justice achieved if the Government reverted to their pre-governmental policy in this matter?

General Sir George Jeffreys: Who will bear the cost of compensating the dependants of British soldiers murdered in the course of their duties?

Mr. Creech Jones: The cost falls on Imperial funds.

Hon. Members: Why?

Railways (Protection)

Colonel Wheatley: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what measures are being taken in Palestine to safeguard the permanent way and protect express railway trains against sabotage by terrorists.

Mr. Creech Jones: The measures at present in force to protect the permanent way and trains of the Palestine Railways. against terrorist outrages include patrols, guards, frequent examination of the lines, and the restriction of traffic to the hours of daylight. In addition, a curfew prohibiting all movement outside built-up areas is imposed as the situation demands.

Colonel Wheatley: Would the Secretary of State consider sending out scientific experts to assist the local authorities to deal with these mines?

Mr. Creech Jones: I think it will be appreciated that this kind of sabotage is exceedingly difficult to detect, but the local authorities are taking all precautions and all possible steps to deal with it.

Oral Answers to Questions — COLONIAL DEFENCE FORCES

Mr. T. Reid: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what Colonies maintain or do not maintain local defence forces.

Mr. Creech Jones: Full time local forces are at present maintained in East and West Africa, Aden, Ceylon, Malayan Union, Gibraltar, Malta, Palestine, Jamaica, Trinidad, Barbados and the Leeward Islands. In addition certain pioneer and transport companies raised in Cyprus, Mauritius and the Seychelles are serving in the Middle East. The local forces in British Honduras and British Guiana are in process of demobilisation.

Commander Noble: Can the Minister give an assurance that the importance of these forces will be continually kept in mind?

Mr. Creech Jones: Yes, Sir.

Oral Answers to Questions — GIBRALTAR STATE LOTTERY

Captain John Crowder: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies what opportunities will be given to people in Great Britain to purchase tickets in the Gibraltar State lottery which he has approved

Mr. Creech Jones: No arrangements will be made.

Captain Crowder: Would the right hon. Gentleman say if tickets could be obtained through the Colonial Office as Gibraltar is in the sterling area?

Oral Answers to Questions — ARMED FORCES

Overseas Maintenance

Mr. Piratin: asked the Minister of Defence what proportion of the £1,653,000,000 spent during 1946–47 on


the supply services was spent for the maintenance of Forces abroad; whether he will state in detail the spheres where such money was spent; what proportion of this amount spent abroad had to be paid for in dollars; and whether the proportion of the £899,000,000 to be spent on the supply services during 1947–48 which will have to be spent in dollars will be approximately equal to the proportion spent in 1946–47.

The Minister of Defence (Mr. A. V. Alexander): The figure quoted by the hon. Member is the total of the Exchequer issues made during last financial year against Navy, Army, Air and Ministry of Supply Votes. It includes not only expenditure of all kinds for the Forces, but also expenditure by the Ministry of Supply for civil purposes. It would be quite impossible to say how much of this figure can properly be regarded as having been spent on main-tenance of Forces overseas. I regret, therefore, that I am unable to provide the information for which the hon. Member asks.

Mr. Piratin: Cannot the Minister provide the information under the third section relating to particulars of expenditure of dollars, and would not that be very useful for this House to know and a valuable hint for the Chancellor of the Exchequer?

Mr. Alexander: I think it is quite impossible to divide up every part of this expenditure so as to show exactly where stores, allowances and so on are finally expended.

Deserters (Surrender)

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: asked the Minister of Defence whether he can now give final figures of the number of deserters who surrendered in response to his recent appeal; how many still await trial; and in how many cases family allowance has not yet been issued to their dependants.

Mr. Alexander: The number of deserters who surrendered between 22nd January and 31st March is:


Royal Navy
…

378


Army
…
1,664


Royal Air Force
…
299


Of these 13, 612 and 119 respectively are still awaiting trial, primarily because of

the large number who surrendered in the last few days of March. I regret that no figures are available to answer the last part of the Question, but I have no reason to suppose that there has been any delay.

Lieut.-Colonel Lipton: Is my right hon. Friend aware that in many cases the dependants of those who have responded to the appeal are kept waiting for two months and more for the issue of family allowance?

Mr. Alexander: I have not heard of a single case, but I am sure that my Service Minister colleagues will go into any case which is brought to my hon. and gallant Friend's attention if he would notify them.

Mr. Chetwynd: Can my right hon. Friend say how many of these men are still at large, and in view of the present disturbing growth of violent crime, will he take all possible steps to round them up?

Mr. Alexander: Some 700 to 800 others have in fact been apprehended during the period covered by my answer and, of course, when the total figure was given to the House some time ago it was pointed out that it was impossible to say with regard to some of them who or where they are. Some may have died in the meantime.

Oral Answers to Questions — FOOD SUPPLIES

Meat

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Food whether, in view of the difficulty which many butchers throughout the country are experiencing in providing the meat ration, he will now state if the Government have been able to make arrangements for an adequate supply of meat to be available for the remaining months of 1947.

The Minister of Food (Mr. Strachey): I am satisfied that the trade have sufficient meat from which to cut the ration and also to make some sausages. We shall import as much meat as possible but it remains to be seen whether we can get enough to fill the gap made in home production by the great frost.

Mr. De la Bère: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that there were exceptionally heavy killings of livestock at


home in the autumn? Is he further aware that our cold storage position is very bad in this country, and does he intend to allow us to drift into a meat crisis without giving any warning?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. I have given warning of the difficulties caused by the gap in home production on many occasions, and I am doing so again this afternoon.

Mr. De la Bère: But does the right hon. Gentleman intend to do something constructive to help?

Mr. Spence: asked the Minister of Food the average monthly weight of beef consigned from Aberdeenshire to other distributing centres during the last six months, and the average monthly weight retained for local consumption.

Mr. Strachey: Some 840 tons and 380 tons, respectively.

Mr. Spence: asked the Minister of Food when he will restore the cut which general butchers were called upon to make by relinquishing their total manufacturing meat allocation, in order to enable the meat ration to be maintained at 1s 4d.

Mr. Strachey: As soon as supplies permit, but I cannot accept the hon. Member's implication that butchers have lost the whole of their manufacturing allowance.

Mr. Spence: Is the Minister aware that in actual fact the general butchers have no manufacturing meat left and often have to issue unsuitable meat for the ration, and as the present shortage may continue, would the Minister consider allocating a small proportion of the domestic meat ration for processing in the interests of feeding people better and also so that the housewives may have something to buy in the middle of the week?

Mr. Strachey: Some meat is, of course, used for manufacturing purposes. It is not entirely used for the ration. Apart from any meat which the butchers can spare for manufacturing, other meat goes direct to the manufacturers, but I do not think that anything would be gained by adding to that proportion.

Lieut.-Colonel Geoffrey Clifton-Brown: Is the Minister aware that the test for cutting a carcase proved that the butcher

could not get the number of rations out of the carcase which the Minister has told him to do?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. I am quite satisfied that that statement is without foundation.

Herring Industry (Control)

Mr. Boothby: asked the Minister of Food whether he is aware that the present system of partial and divided control over the herring fishing industry between his Department, the Ministry of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Scottish Office and the Herring Industry Board is leading to increasingly unsatisfactory results; and whether he will take immediate steps to give the Herring Board the powers necessary to exercise an effective control over the industry.

Mr. Strachey: The Herring Industry Board is responsible to the Fisheries Ministers, not to me. Any important change in the present arrangements will involve legislation—and there is, I am afraid, no chance of that this Session.

Mr. Boothby: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind that while arguments may be advanced in favour of Socialism or of free enterprise there is very little to be said for controlling an industry by four separate authorities no two of whom agree on any single subject?

Mr. Strachey: I do not agree with the hon. Gentleman in his implication.

Conditional Sales

Mr. Sparks: asked the Minister of Food if he is aware that attempts are being made to evade the provisions of the Food (Conditional Sales) Order by some greengrocers selling to customers only a very small quantity of fruit or vegetables which are in short supply and only increasing that quantity in proportion to the amount purchased by the customer of other commodities not in short supply; and, in view of this practice, if he will lay down minimum or maximum quantities of fruit and vegetables in short supply which may be sold to any one purchaser.

Mr. Strachey: Any such form of conditional sales is illegal. I am always ready to take action against anyone who contravenes the Order and if my hon. Friend and others can help me by supplying particulars I will gladly have them investigated.

Mr. Sparks: Is the Minister aware that the kind of thing that is happening is that if a customer wants apples he is offered 4 oz., which amounts to one apple, but that if he buys other goods he is allowed two or three lb. of apples, which are in short supply? Does not the Minister agree that this is imposing a condition of sale and is illegal?

Mr. Strachey: I agree entirely, and I should be very grateful for any help which would lead to successful prosecution in these cases.

Mr. Skeffington-Lodge: Will my right hon. Friend watch particularly the activities of the British Housewives League in this connection?

Milk Surpluses

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: asked the Minister of Food what is the daily difference in quantity between the liquid milk supplied to retailers and the liquid milk supplied to consumers; and for what purposes the difference is used.

Mr. Strachey: I am unable to give figures of the average difference. Retailers receiving more milk than they need to meet the authorised requirements of their registered customers must declare their surplus to the regional milk supply officer, who arranges for it to be transferred whenever practicable to other retailers wh3 are short of supplies. If this is not practicable the retailer is permitted to dispose of the surplus as equitably as possible amongst his registered customers.

Mr Joynson-Hicks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the latter half if that alternative provision is either not communicated to the retailers or is not practised by them because, generally speaking, any such surplus milk is poured away because it has gone had before the retailer is authorised to deal with it?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. This has been a long-standing arrangement made by my predecessors long before my time, but I reiterate it here today in case any hon. Member doubts it.

Domestic and Catering Allocations

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: asked the Minister of Food what quantities of meat bacon, sugar, butter, margarine and cooking fats were, respectively, allocated to

domestic consumers and to catering establishments in March, 1946, and March 1947.

Mr. Strachey: As the answer involves number of figures I will, with permission, circulate it in the OFFICIAL REPORT.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether the allocations for the domestic consumers are greater or less than they were a year ago?

Mr. Strachey: They vary in different cases. In meat they are slightly larger, in bacon slightly smaller and in sugar slightly larger and so on, but the hon. Member had better look at the list.

Following is the answer:

The quantities of meat, bacon, sugar, butter, margarine and cooking fats allocations to domestic consumers and to catering establishments during the four-week periods ended 30th March, 1946, and 29th March, 1947, were approximately:


—
Domestic Consumers.
Catering Establishments.




tons
tons


Meat:





1946
…
82,800
9,200


1947
…
99,900
12,300


Bacon:





1946
…
19,670
1,230


1947
…
13,100
1,050


Sugar:





1946
…
47,480
5,820


1947
…
52,480
6,310


Butter:





1946
…
15,860
1,300


1947
…
16,600
1,520


Margarine:





1946
…
16,150
2,280



1947
…
16,800
2,470


Cooking Fats:





1946
…
5,090
620


1947
…
5,600
660

Catering establishments include schools, works canteens, hotels, boarding houses, cafes, restaurants and all other establishments holding catering licences.

Cooking Fats

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: asked the Minister of Food what does standard cooking fat consist of; whether he is aware that it has a tendency to turn blue and explode when used for cooking; and what steps he proposes to take to improve its quality.

Mr. Strachey: Standard cooking fat consists of soft vegetable oil, palm kernel oil and hardened whale oil. The palm kernel oil makes it a little more liable to spit in the pan but has to be included because of the extreme shortage of soft oils. The hon. Member may rest assured that everything possible is being done to improve the supply of soft oils, for instance, by the East African Groundnut Scheme.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Does not the right hon. Gentleman consider this most unmannerly conduct on the part of standard cooking fat? Will he take steps to try to improve it so that it does not spit in the pan?

Mr. Gallacher: Is the Minister aware that the hon. Members on the other side are likely to turn blue and explode tonight?

Mr. Keeling: Would the Minister say whether he can guarantee any cautionary interval between the fat turning blue and starting to spit?

Mr. Scollan: Is it not the case that this fat is supplied by I.C.I.?

Mr. Strachey: Not in all cases.

Mr. Drayson: Would the right hon. Gentleman agree that a little palm oil is a feature of all Socialist administration?

Mrs. Manning: May I ask my right hon. Friend, in the interests of good cooking, whether the vapour that comes up in the pan between the fat turning blue and spitting in the pan is a real indication of the heat of the fat, or is it a spurious vapour?

Fruit and Vegetable Order

Mr. Butcher: asked the Minister of Food the number of persons engaged in administering the Fresh Fruit and Vegetables (Restriction on Dealings) Order, 1945; and whether he is satisfied that its retention at the present time serves a useful purpose.

Mr. Strachey: I should like to free the entry into this trade and hope to do so when supplies improve.

Flood Workers

Mr. Butcher: asked the Minister of Food why his Department were so slow in making available permits for supplies

of food for firemen pumping floodwate in South Lincolnshire.

Mr. Strachey: The regional catering officer of the N.F.S. responsible for feeding the men has expressed his satisfaction with the help given by my Department. I shall be glad, however, to investigate any suggestion of delay the hon. Member will let me have details

Price Variations

Mr. Piratin: asked the Minister of Food if he will make a statement showing all the increases in the price of food since 1st January this year.

Mr. Strachey: I will send the hon. Member a detailed list of all price-controlled foods, the prices of which have varied since 1st January.

Mr. Piratin: If the right hon. Gentleman's reply requires it to be sent in the form of a list and if this list appears to be so extensive, can the Minister say whether it is now the policy of the Government to increase the prices of foodstuffs?

Mr. Strachey: No, Sir. The hon. Member heard my reply. I said I would send him a list of all the price-controlled foods, the prices of which have varied. They have varied in both directions.

Mr. Nicholson: Can the list be circulated in the OFFICIAL REPORT? The matter is one of great public importance.

Mr. Strachey: It is a very long list, but it can be circulated if the hon. Member desires it.

Tinned Milk

Mr. Piratin: asked the Minister of Food whether he will make a statement regarding the proposed increase in the charge for tinned milk: and why this is necessary.

Mr. Strachey: the retail prices of condensed milk were increased on 27th April by amounts varying from 1½d. to 3d. per tin according to variety. The increases are made to bring prices into line with costs.

Unstoned Dates

Mr. Henry Strauss: asked the Minister of Food whether the unstoned dates mentioned in the notices of his Department are dates with stones in them or dates without them.

Mr. Strachey: Unstoned dates are dates which have not been stoned, dates which have not, that is to say, had their stones removed.

Mr. Strauss: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the meaning which he gives to the term "unstoned" is the opposite to that given in all reputable dictionaries?

Mr. Nicholson: Read Haydn' s Dictionary of Dates.

Mrs. Jean Mann: May I ask my right hon. Friend why Scotland has been excluded from the advantages of this scheme?

Mr. Strachey: I do not quite understand my hon. Friend's point.

Mrs. Mann: Is my right hon. Friend aware that a directive has been sent to all Scottish grocers informing them that owing to the difficulties of transport—and I think that is a jolly poor excuse—the scheme cannot apply to Scotland?

Mr. Speaker: The Question is whether dates are stoned or unstoned and has nothing to do with Scotland.

Basic Rations

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Food whether in connection with the present distribution of food and the difficulties experienced by those who have no opportunity of obtaining meals out, and are solely dependent on the basic ration, every endeavour will be made to increase the basic ration with special regard to those in the country districts who cannot obtain meals in British Restaurants and works canteens.

Mr. Strachey: Rations will be increased the moment supplies permit.

Mr. De la Bère: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the basic ration is not really sufficient for many people who cannot get any additional benefits from British Restaurants or works canteens, and that it is particularly hard on many people in the rural areas who have no advantages of that sort?

Mr. Strachey: Agricultural workers do, of course, enjoy appreciably higher rations in some respects.

Mr. Joynson-Hicks: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that they enjoy no ad-

vantages in regard to increased rations of meat although they are working up to 12 hours a day or more?

Oral Answers to Questions — EVACUATED MALTESE (SETTLEMENT)

Brigadier Mackeson: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether he has assumed responsibility for the resettlement of Maltese who were evacuated from Turkey and the Balkans at the beginning of the war and are now housed in a camp at Coimbatore in South India; how many persons are concerned; where it is proposed to resettle them; what the cost is likely to be; and by whom it will be borne.

Mr. Creech Jones: His Majesty's Government have accepted the responsibility for the return to normal life of the British subjects of Maltese descent, numbering some 700, who were evacuated to India from Turkey and the Balkans in 194I. Their resettlement presents very great difficulties, and, while the matter has received and is receiving urgent consideration, it has not yet been possible to formulate final plans. Any cost to public funds will, like the cost of maintenance to date, be borne by His Majesty's Government, but its amount cannot be determined until it is known where and how the persons concerned can be settled.

Brigadier Mackeson: Could the right hon. Gentleman say which Department is to assume responsibility? Is he assuming it himself?

Mr. Creech Jones: At the moment the responsibility is mine.

Oral Answers to Questions — INDIAN SERVICES (COMPENSATION)

Mr. R. A. Butler: (by Private Notice) asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make about the grant of compensation to members of the Indian Services on account of the decision to transfer power in India by a date not later than June, 1948.

The Prime Minister (Mr. Attlee): Yes, Sir. A decision has now been reached on the compensation of members of the Indian Services whose careers will be affected by the transfer of power. This decision needs to be viewed against its historical background and I will, with the


permission of the House, explain the circumstances which have led up to it.
The Act of 1919 placed officers appointed by the Secretary of State in subordination for the first time to Indian Ministers under the system of dyarchy established in the Provinces. This was considered to make a radical change in the conditions under which they had been appointed to serve and Section 96B of the Act was enacted to provide compensation in the case of persons appointed before the commencement of the Act. But the altered conditions of service created doubts in the minds of possible candidates as to future security of tenure and, in order to dispel these doubts and to ensure the necessary flow of recruits, authoritative explanations which carried assurance of a permanent career in India were given at the universities and elsewhere. The principle of assured service or, in default, compensation was enunciated in 1934 by the joint Select Committee of Parliament without limitation to those appointed before any particular date. In this form statutory effect was given to it by the detailed provisions contained in Part X of the Government of India Act, 1935.
It was thus the intention of Parliament that officers whose careers and prospects were prejudiced by constitutional changes should receive such compensation as the Secretary of State might consider just and equitable.
When in 1945 recruitment for the I.C.S. and the Indian Police was resumed, with provision for compensation if for constitutional reasons service was terminated prematurely, the then Secretary of State undertook, at the request of the Government of India, that officers already serving would, if their services were similarly terminated, be granted terms not less favourable considered as a whole than those applicable to the new recruits. His Majesty's Government have, therefore, considered what arrangements should be made to compensate these and other officers appointed by the Secretary of State for loss of career and prospects.
There is also a further important factor to be considered. The Government of India inform His Majesty's Government that they are most anxious to avoid the loss of experienced officers. They have stated that they are prepared to give to those members of the Secretary of State's Services who continue to serve under

government in India the same terms as to scales of pay, leave, pension rights and safeguards in matters of discipline as hitherto. Provincial Governments are being asked to give a similar assurance to officers continuing to serve in their Provinces. In the case of Indian officers they feel that sentiments of patriotism will impel them to continue to serve their country and that they can look for a positive improvement in their prospects. They agree, however, that compensation should be payable to Indian officers who—

(1) are not invited to continue to serve under Government in India after the transfer of power, or
(2) can satisfy the Governor-General that their actions in the course of duty during service prior to the transfer of power have damaged their prospects or that the appointments offered to them are such as cannot be regarded as satisfactory in the altered circumstances, or
(3) can show to the satisfaction of the Governor-General that they have legitimate cause for anxiety about their future in the Province where they are now serving and that no suitable transfer can be arranged.

They do not feel that compensation should be admissible to Indian officers in other cases.
His Majesty's Government have now considered the position created by the undertaking given in 1945, the views expressed by the Government of India about the future, and all other relevant circumstances. While reserving the right to reconsider the position if any Provincial Government is unwilling to give the assurance that I have mentioned, they feel that there is a radical difference in the effect which the transfer of power will have upon the position of European and Indian officers respectively. The former will no longer be serving under the ultimate control of the Parliament of their own country and it cannot be maintained that their prospects will be the same as in the past. On the other hand, Indian officers will continue to serve their own country on the same terms as before. These will be guaranteed by the Government of India or by the Provincial Governments as the case may be, while their prospects will be improved. The same case for compensation, therefore, does not arise, though there may be ex-


ceptions within the three classes referred to. His Majesty's, Government have accordingly authorised the Viceroy to announce that they accept the obligation to see that European officers and those Indian officers in the three special categories should receive compensation for the loss of their careers and prospects consequent on the transfer of power. They undertake also that the members of the Secretary of State's Services in India who retire will be secured in their rights to the leave then due to them.
Opportunities will exist for further government service for many of those who will become entitled to compensation. It is the earnest hope of His Majesty's Government that officers will freely avail themselves of these opportunities. The terms of such further employment will be a matter for consideration; but where British officers of the Civil Services accept appointment to another Civil Service under His Majesty's Government on a permanent, pensionable basis, they will receive no compensation but will be eligible for a re-settlement grant of £500.
The development of the policy of His Majesty's Government for constitutional advance in India has affected European. officers and other ranks of the Royal Indian Navy, Indian Army and Indian Medical Service in a similar way to the members of the Civil Services The same principles of compensation will, therefore, be applied and the scales are being published forthwith.
His Majesty's Government are anxious to do all in their power to assist the Indian Administration over the difficulties entailed by the transfer of power and, in order to minimise the loss of experienced officers and to encourage those British officers who are invited to do so to continue in service under Government in India, they undertake that these will receive the compensation to which they are entitled should they desire at any time after the transfer of power to exercise their right to retire. The amount of such compensation will be determined in accordance with the tables by the date on which active service ceases and service rendered both before and after June, 1948, will be taken into account. Compensation will be payable in addition to such retiring or proportionate pension as is admissible under rules.
The sources from which the monies involved will ultimately come must be a matter to be dealt with hereafter but, so far as the individuals affected are concerned, they have the assurance of His Majesty's Government that they will receive the monies to which they will become entitled.
The Government of India accept liability for pension and proportionate pension earned by service under the Secretary of State, whether by civilians or by members of the Defence Services.
His Majesty's Government have accordingly authorised the Viceroy to make the announcement which is published in a White Paper laid today. The White Paper also contains tables setting out the scales of compensation for the various Services affected.
I hope to make a very early announcement regarding compensation for the services in Burma where the position is similar to that in India and discussions are now in progress with the Government of Burma as to the terms and scope of the arrangements to be made.

Mr. Butler: May I ask the Prime Minister, first, whether an equivalent statement is likely to be made dealing with uncovenanted services and the smaller services serving Provincial Governments; and, secondly, whether he realises that it will be necessary for us to consider in detail the implications of his important statement, the tables to which he has referred, and so forth, and whether we may have time to consider them so that we can give a considered view on this matter?

The Prime Minister: In answer to the second question, I quite realise that this is a difficult matter, and that hon. Members will also want to study the scales before they ask further questions. On the actual point that has been raised, the provisions of the White Paper cover all members of the Civil Service in India appointed by the Secretary of State, including the members of the old Indian Agricultural, Educational, Forestry and Veterinary Services; they do not cover officers appointed by authorities other than the Secretary of State.

Mr. Nicholson: Will this require legislation?

The Prime Minister: Yes, I think this will require legislation in due course.

Mr. Nicholson: Will that be during this Session?

The Prime Minister: I cannot say at the moment.

Mr. King: Could my right hon. Friend say whether members of the Indian Ecclesiastical Establishment are covered?

The Prime Minister: Yes, Sir.

Mr. Wyatt: Could my right hon. Friend say whether any active steps are being taken to encourage British officers in India to remain in India after June, 1948, instead of taking compensation?

The Prime Minister: Yes, I indicated that in my statement.

Mr. Butler: There is one other very important matter. The Prime Minister referred to the Government of India accepting liability for retiring pensions and proportionate pensions. We are very glad to know that. In the event of the present Government of India not being the Government to which power is transferred, can the right hon. Gentleman give any undertaking that the successive Government, or Governments, will accept similar liabilities?

The Prime Minister: That is a matter which, of course, will have to be dealt with in making the general arrangements for the transfer, but the point of making the statement now is that we have this assurance made on behalf of the present Government of India, in so far as they can speak for affairs in India. It is quite essential that His Majesty's Government here should make quite plain the obligation we accept towards our subjects.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE

Mr. Eden: May I ask the acting Leader of the House if he has any statement to make on the Business for tomorrow?

The Minister Without Portfolio (Mr. Arthur Greenwood): Yes, Sir.
Conversations have taken place through the usual channels as I promised last week with regard to the arrangements for the Debate on the fuel situation which is to take place tomorrow.
The Prayer to annul the Control of Fuel (Restriction of Heating) Order which stands on the Paper in the names of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for Warwick and Leamington (Mr. Eden) and others, will be taken as the first item of Business tomorrow.
[That the Control of Fuel (Restriction of Heating) Order, 1947 (S.R. &amp; O., 1947, No. 765), dated 25th April, 1947, a copy of which was presented on 28th April, be annulled.]
While it is for you to decide, Mr. Speaker, it would seem that the Debate on the Prayer will be restricted, and therefore, after the Motion has been disposed of, the Government propose to move the Adjournment of the House in order to admit of wider debate on the fuel situation.
On Friday, after the Burma Proclamation and Order have been dealt with, we propose to ask the House to resume and conclude the Debate on the Second Reading of the Public Offices (Site) Bill and take the Committee stage of the necessary Money Resolution.

Orders of the Day — TRANSPORT BILL

[3RD ALLOTTED DAY]

Order read for resuming Adjourned Debate on Amendment proposed [29th April] on Consideration of Bill, as amended (in the Standing Committee and on recommittal).

Which Amendment was in page line 30, at the end, to insert:
Provided that if any person is aggrieved by the proposal to purchase any land compulsorily on the ground that such land belongs to him and forms an essential part of the premises upon which he carries on a trade or business and was acquired in relation thereto he may within twenty-eight days from the date on which he receives notice of the proposal to purchase such land compulsorily make an application to the High Court and the Court may if in its opinion it is unreasonable in the circumstances that such land should be compulsorily acquired direct that it should not be so acquired."—[Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe.]

Question again proposed, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

3.45 p.m.

Mr. David Renton: When the House adjourned at two o'clock this morning, I was saying that reference to the High Court on matters affecting compulsory acquisition of land was necessary owing to the paradoxes in this Bill in regard to the basis of compensation when land is acquired compulsorily. I had not time fully to develop my argument then, but I will endeavour in a few words to explain, particularly for the benefit of the Solicitor-General, who I think, is principally concerned with the Amendment, the point which I am trying to make. The House will remember that under Clause 8 of the Bill, the 1939 value is to be applied when land is bought compulsorily by the Commission otherwise than when acquiring a transport business. But under Clause 46 (2) when the Commission is acquiring transport business, any property other than vehicles—and that means, possibly, any land such as a garage—will have to be paid for not at the 1939 value, but at the amount which it would fetch in the open market at the date of transfer, which might easily be very much higher.
Under Clause 8, it is difficult for us to tell with much precision what is going to happen, because we do not know very much about the Minister's intention with

regard to the setting up of garages, repair depots, and so fourth, for the large number of vehicles, goods and passenger, which the Commission will be acquiring. The Parliamentary Secretary did however say in Committee that he anticipated that Clause 8 would be used for buying garages. His words were:
it is essential that the Commission should have the power as given under Clause 8. It might be essential for it to purchase a garage in a convenient place, in, or close to, a convenient town."—[OFFICIAL REPORT, Standing Committee B, 4th March, 1947, c. 546.]
There seems to arise from that, a very serious danger that the Commission when not acquiring a transport business in its entirety, or, indeed, not acquiring any vehicles at all, might nevertheless decide to purchase some of the land, and get it at the 1939 values, and thereby handicap the people carrying on the business. I am sure that the Solicitor-General and the House will agree that that would be most unfair. Indeed, it would be the ruination of a business by an underhand method, and it is hard to believe that such a thing has ever been intended by the Government. But we should at least know what the Minister's reactions are to such a possibility. It is legally possible under the Bill as it stands for the notice of acquisition of a transport business to be postponed with the effect that the premises might be bought under Clause 8. The business being handicapped without its premises, might depreciate most terribly in value. Notice of acquisition might at a later date be served and, of course, the compensation payable when the business has gone down in that way would be negligible.
My next point concerns the acquisition of hotels. Under Clause 2, (1, d) the Commission has great power. It has power—
in places within Great Britain where their passengers may require them, to provide both for their passengers and for other persons hotels, hostels, other living accommodation and places for refreshment;
How is the Commission going to exercise that power? It is dealt with under Clause 46, but it is a question of the power being used under the compulsory purchase provisions of Clause 8 being brought into operation. In that way, a large number of hotels and restaurants could be bought over by the Commission, and 1939 values paid. I do not know whether or not the Minister contemplated that that would be


legally possible under the Bill, but it seems to me that that would be so, because when power to buy land is given, I assume that it also means power to buy buildings on the land. There is no definition of land in the Bill, but in other Acts of Parliament land has been defined as including buildings upon it. When we are faced with such great threats to so many people, is it asking too much that cases of doubt or grievance should be referred by those people to courts of law, so that the matter may be dealt with justly and fairly by His Majesty's judges? For these reasons, I ask my hon. Friends to press this Amendment very strongly.

The Solicitor - General (Sir Frank Soskice): This Amendment was debated in some detail early today and, when the House rose, the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) had just put a question to me upon which I think the whole basis of his argument hinges. Today, he has enumerated various instances in which he thinks, or suggests, that justice might be affected because of the basis of compensation for which provision is made. He assumed for the purpose of his argument that the basis of compensation would be 1939 prices. I do not know whether hon. Members have noticed that there is on the Order Paper a proposed Amendment to the Town and Country Planning Bill, to amend Section 57 of the Town and Country Planning Act of 1944. Hon. Gentlemen will remember that the 1939 prices, in cases of compulsory acquisition, are fixed by the provisions of Section 57 of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944. The Amendment to which I refer and which I hope, in due course, the House will think proper to accept, provides that instead of the 1939 prices, those which are to be taken for the purpose of Section 57 are to be current prices subject to certain limitations, To put it briefly and in general terms, they are to be current prices less the development charge—less the value which attaches to the land by reason of its development possibilities. As hon. Members know, that particular value is being paid for by the £300 million which is provided for in the Town and Country Planning Bill.

Mr. Assheton: Partly.

The Solicitor-General: I said "paid for" and the right hon. Gentleman said "partly." That is a matter of opinion.

That is the basic figure to pay for the value of land, and the current value is substituted apart from that limitation, for the 1939 value. That is the answer to the question of the hon. Gentleman the Member for Huntingdon. I think I am right in assuming that because of that answer, a great deal of the anomaly which he sought to make out would arise in the instances recounted by him, will not in fact arise.

Mr. Renton: I entirely agree with the Solicitor-General that so far as my arguments are concerned I am completely satisfied. My arguments have been answered; but, of course, the other arguments remain.

The Solicitor-General: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for what he has said. I will not take up any further time with that aspect of the question. I feel sure that hon. Members do not want me to review the arguments which were addressed to us early today. I would, however, summarise them very briefly as I see them. Apart from the case made by the hon. Member for Huntingdon, the argument made was really based upon this hypothesis; that when we get what is really no more than a trading corporation, we should not give preferential treatment to that trading corporation at the expense of other trading corporations without, at any rate, giving the right to the other trading corporations to test the matter before the courts.
In the first place it is not as if we were dealing with a trading corporation at all. No -doubt, this corporation will trade, but, after all, the Transport Commission is a great public undertaking which has a responsibility to each and every citizen in this country for the conduct of the transport industry in the United Kingdom. It is not in any sense comparable with a private concern, in competition with another private concern as to which it can be said that the court should resolve any dispute, difference or clash of interest arising between them. Under the terms of the Acquisition of Land Act, 1946, in the case of local authorities there is no such recourse. Under the terms of the Town and Country Planning Act, 1944, in the case of planning authorities there is no such recourse. 1n the case of the Departments mentioned in the 1946 Act, again there is no such recourse. It is not as if we are starting


upon a matter which is res integra. This is a matter which has been codified by the terms of the 1946 Act, which is designed to set out a code, as the Parliamentary Secretary said yesterday. It is code which has been approved by the House primarily for the purpose of local authorities. Why should local authorities be placed in a situation different from that of the Transport Commission with regard to this problem?
In the case of the Transport Commission, the determining consideration in a decision whether or not a particular plot of land should be acquired, must be the public interest. The question is, can the Transport Commission discharge its public function in developing and carrying on the transport industry more efficiently by acquiring or not acquiring a particular piece of land? If the answer is "Yes," then obviously I submit the Commission should have the power to acquire upon payment of compensation. Compensation, of course, is to be paid. Which is the most appropriate organ to decide whether or not the public interest requires it? Surely, it is the Commission which, in the interests of the public, is charged with the duty of carrying on the transport industry. I put it to the House that it is something in the nature of an unnecessary duplication to submit to the Courts a matter which is peculiarly one for the decision of the Transport Commission when what the Commission has to decide is whether the public interest requires that a particular plot of land should be acquired.
If it is necessary for the purpose of the Transport Commission that it should have that land at its disposal I put it to the House that it ought to have these powers. It ought to have them so long as it exercises them bona fide, and does not act from any indirect or malicious motive.. The 1946 Act required that the person affected shall have his case considered by the machinery of the Act and not by a completely independent body, but the point of that Act is to provide that what the person has to say in his own defence, should not go unheard. He will be heard and his representations will be taken into account.
Therefore, I ask the House to say that the major case in favour of this Amend-

ment has collapsed because it was based upon a mistaken view in regard to what the compensation should be. With re. Bard to the rest of the case, when one bears in mind the nature of the Commission and the task with which it is entrusted on behalf of the public, it follows that it should be the decision of the Commission, subject to a hearing being given to the person affected, which should determine whether or not a particular plot of land should be acquired. For those reasons, I say that it is perfectly proper that the Commission should have the right, subject to following up the necessary procedure, to acquire land provided the necessary compensation is paid. I ask the House to say that the Clause should stand as it is.

Mr. Assheton: There are 123 Clauses and 15 Schedules in this Bill and we are still at Clause 8. Eheu! fugaces, Soskice. Soskice.

Mr. Sparks: Would the right hon. Gentleman speak in English so that hon. Members can understand?

Mr. Assheton: The learned Solicitor-General used the words "res integra."

The Solicitor-General: I hope that the right hon. Gentleman will not add the word labuntur.

Mr. Assheton: I am afraid I cannot accept the argument which the learned Solicitor-General has put before the House. Of course, I am glad to learn that the 1939 price level is not intended to apply to this Bill, though my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) could not necessarily have been aware of the proceedings on the Town and Country Planning Bill as he has been so actively engaged upstairs with the rest of us on the Transport Bill. I accept the statement that it is the intention of the Government that that shall become law. Judging by the experience of the last few months, the intentions of the Government with regard to these matters have been implemented.
I do not think that the learned Solicitor-General really met the other point which hon. Gentlemen behind me take so seriously. It is admitted that land includes the buildings upon it. Here, we are giving the Transport Commission power to purchase compulsorily any land,


and that means any buildings upon the land. The Transport Commission may take a fancy to a garage or hotel owned by some private interest which is in competition with it. It would be rather like giving the "Co-ops" the right to buy compulsorily small shops, to which they took a fancy, and I do not think that hon. Members on this side of the House

should be expected to agree to that proposition. I do not propose to argue the matter further. The issue between us is clear, and I can only advise my hon. Friends to press this matter to a Division.

Question put, "That those words be there inserted in the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes. 131: Noes, 266.

Division No. 159.]
AYES.
[4.1 p.m.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)
Nield, B. (Chester)


Amory, D. Heathcoat
Harris, H. Wilson
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P


Assheton, Rt. Hon. R.
Harvey, Air-Comdre. A. V
Nutting, Anthony


Baldwin, A. E.

Haughton, S. G.
Orr-Ewing, I. L.


Barlow, Sir J.
Head, Brig. A. H.
Peake, Rt. Hon. O


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.
Peto, Brig. C. H. M


Beechman, N. A.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Pickthorn, K.


Bennett, Sir P
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Ponsonby, Col. C. E.


Birch, Nigel
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)
Poole, O B. S. (Oswestry)


Boothby, R.
Hulbert, Wing-Comdr. N. J
Prescott, Stanley


Bowen, R.
Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Jeffreys, General Sir G.
Rayner, Brig. R


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr. Hon. L. W.
Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Keeling, E. H.
Renton, D


Bullock, Capt. M.
Kendall, W. D.
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Byers, Frank
Kingsmill, Lt.-Col. W. H
Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)


Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.
Lambert, Hon. G.
Ropner, Col. L.


Cole, T. L.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Ross, Sir R.


Conant, Maj. R. J. E.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Linstead, H. N.
Scott, Lord W.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Lipson, D. L.
Shepherd, S. (Newark)


Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)
Spearman, A. C. M.


Cuthbert, W. N.
Low, Brig. A. R. W.
Spence, H. R.


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.


Davies, Clement (Montgomery)
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.
Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)


Digby, S. W.
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)


Dodds-Parker, A. D.
McCallum, Maj. D.
Sutcliffe, H.


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)
Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)


Drayson, G. B.
Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd'ton, S.)


Drewe, C.
McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Teeling, William


Duthie. W. S
Maclay, Hon. J. S.
Thorneycroft, G. E P. (Monmouth)


Eden, Rt. Hon. A
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Thorp, Lt.-Col R. A. F


Erroll, F. J.
Macpherson, Maj, N. (Dumfries)
Touche, G. C.


Foster, J. G. (Northwich)
Maitland, Comdr. J. W.
Vane, W. M. F.


Fox, Sir G.
Manningham-Buller, R. E.
Wadsworth, G.


Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Marsden, Capt. A.
Walker-Smith, D.


Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.
Marshall, D. (Bodmin)
Ward, Hon. G. R.


George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)
Marshall, S. H. (Sutton)
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Glyn, Sir R.
Medlicott, F.
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord


Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G
Mellor, Sir J.
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl


Grant, Lady
Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)
York, C.


Granville, E. (Eye)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)



Gridley, Sir A.
Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES


Grimston, R. V.
Neven-Spence, Sir B.
Commander Agnew and


Gruffydd, Prof. W. J
Nicholson, G
Mr. Studholme




NOES.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Berry, H
Butler, H. W. (Hackney. S.)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Beswick, F.
Callaghan, James


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Bing, G. H. C.
Castle, Mrs. B. A.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Binns, J.
Chamberlain, R. A.


Alpass, J. H.
Blackburn, A. R.
Champion, A. J.


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Blyton, W. R.
Chater, D.


Attewell, H. C.
Bottomley, A. G.
Chetwynd, G. R.


Attlee, Rt Hon. C R
Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Clitherow, Dr. R.


Austin, H. L
Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Cocks, F. S.


Awbery, S. S.
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Collindridge, F


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Collins, V. J.


Bacon, Miss A
Bramall, Major E. A.
Colman, Miss G. M


Balfour, A.
Brook, D. (Halifax)
Comyns, Dr. L


Barnes, Rt. Hon A. J.
Brown, George (Belper)
Cook, T. F.


Barstow, P. G
Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G


Barton, C.
Bruce, Major D. W. T
Corlett, Dr. J.


Battley, J. R.
Buchanan, G
Cove, W. G.


Bechervaise, A E
Burden, T. W.
Crawley, A


Benson, G.
Burke, W. A.
Daggar, G




Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Kinley, J.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Kirkwood, D.
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Lavers, S.
Sargood, R.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Lee, F. (Hulme)

Scollan, T.


Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Scott-Elliot, W.


Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Leslie, J R.
Shackleton, E. A A.


Deer, G.
Levy, B. W.
Sharp, Granville


Delargy, Captain H. J.
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


Diamond, J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Shurmer, P.


Dobbie, W.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Dodds, N. N.
Logan, D. G.
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.


Driberg, T. E. N.
Longden, F.
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Lyne, A. W.
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)


Dumpleton, C. W.
McAdam, W.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Durbin, E. F. M.
McEntee, V. La T
Snow, Capt. J. W.


Dye, S.
McGhee, H. G.
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Sparks, J. A.


Edelman, M.
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Stamford, W.


Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
McKinlay, A. S.
Stephen, C.


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Maclean, N. (Govan)
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Evans, John (Ogmore)
McLeavy, F.
Strauss, G R. (Lambeth)


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Stubbs, A. E.


Ewart, R.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Swingler, S.


Farthing, W. J.
Mann, Mrs. J.
Sylvester, G. O.


Field, Captain W. J.
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Symonds, A. L.


Follick, M.
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Foot, M. M.
Marquand, H. A.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Forman, J. C.
Mathers, G.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)
Monslow, W.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Montague, F.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Gallacher, W.
Moody, A. S.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Morley, R.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Gibbins, J.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Thurtle, Ernest


Gilzean, A.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Tiffany, S.


Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)
Timmons, J.


Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Mort, D. L.
Titterington, M. F.


Grenfell, D. R.
Moyle, A.
Tolley, L.



Grey, C. F.
Nally, W.
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.


Grierson, E.
Naylor, T. E.
Turner-Samuels, M.


Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Viant, S. P.


Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Gunter, R. J.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Guy, W. H.
O'Brien, T.
Warbey, W. N.


Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Oldfield, W. H.
Watkins, T. E.


Hall, W. G.
Oliver, G. H.
Watson, W. M.


Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Parkin, B, T.
Weitzman, D.


Hardy, E. A.
Paton, Mrs. F.(Rushcliffe)
Wells P. L. (Faversham)


Harrison, J.
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Pearson, A.
West, D. G.


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Peart, Capt. T. F.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Hicks, G.
Piratin, P.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Hobson, C. R.
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Wilkes, L.


Holman, P
Popplewell, E.
Wilkins, W. A.


Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)


Hoy, J.
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Hubbard, T.
Price, M. Philips
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Hudson, J. H. (Eating, W.)
Pritt, D. N.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Proctor, W. T.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Pryde, D. J.
Williamson, T.


Janner, B.
Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Willis, E.


Jay, D. P. T.
Randall, H. E.
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


John, W.
Ranger, J.
Wise, Major F. J.


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Rankin, J.
Wyatt, W.


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Reeves, J.
Yates, V. F.


Jonas, J. H. (Bolton)
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Rhodes, H.
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Keenan, W.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M.



King, E. M.
Robens, A.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.
Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Mr. Simmonds Mr. Daines.

CLAUSE 12.—(Vesting of undertakings.)

Mr. Assheton: I beg to move, in page 12, line 20, to leave out from "the," to the end of the line, and to insert "appointed day."
Happily, this Amendment is not as technical as many we have had to consider recently. Its object must be obvious

to all. The Bill, as it stands, provides for the vesting in the British Transport Commission on 1st January next of all the undertakings set out in the Third Schedule to this Bill. The Third Schedule is a very long one, and it does not look as if we shall reach it today; it looks as if it will be one of those numerous things


which will be undiscussed. It is clear that the Bill may not receive the Royal Assent for some time yet. Whether or not it will ever receive it, I cannot say. At the very best, a very short time, indeed, will be left for the appointment of the British Transport Commission and of all the Executives, and for the setting-up of the huge new organisation proposed under this Bill. Last year, the Coal Industry Nationalisation Bill received the Royal Assent on 12th July, and the appointed day was 1st January, 1947. That interval of time certainly proved inadequate to enable the National Coal Board and the regional coal boards to be in a position to function successfully and satisfactorily. Even up to the present time, that is very much the position, and I understand that we are likely to hear more of it before long.
This Amendment merely gives the Minister power to postpone the date of transfer until he is satisfied that some sort of workable organisation has been set up. It seems to me a very sensible proposition for the Minister to accept. We are merely giving him the option of postponing the appointed day, if he thinks it necessary and desirable so to do. We do not want to have a transport crisis next year, as we had a coal crisis this year. That, if I may say so, is the main point of this Amendment. I believe that the Minister of Transport has a great deal more sense of responsibility than have some of his colleagues, and I shall be very disappointed if he does not accept this Amendment. When we discussed it upstairs in Committee, the Minister said that, for the sake of the taxpayer, it was important to bring the Bill into effect at the earliest possible moment. Of course, what he meant was that, when the Bill comes into operation, the shareholders are going to be robbed of a lot of money, and that the Commission is going to benefit by it. He wants to bring about that position as soon as he can. That is not an argument which appeals to us on this side of the House. In any case, it would be cheaper for the Government, and for the Commission, to put up with that a little longer, than to land the country in a great transport crisis.
Then the right hon. Gentleman said that it would introduce an element of uncertainty. Of course, it introduces a certain element of uncertainty, but, there again, the certainty of not being ready by 1st

January is a much more fearful prospect, to my way of thinking, than any prospect engendered by this proposal. I suggest, therefore, that it would be a sensible thing to give the Minister the option of postponing the date if he so wishes. This Amendment does not compel him to do so; it merely gives him the power to do so if he thinks fit.

4.15 p.m.

Mr. Oliver Poole: I wish to emphasise what my right hon. Friend the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton) said, that this is neither a very technical nor a very controversial Amendment. I realise that, if the Minister liked, he could make great play with certain aspects of it, but I think that he understands perfectly the real purpose behind it. There is, in fact, only one purpose. We realise that, if this Bill becomes an Act, the Minister will wish to get the vesting date as early as possible. There is no controversy on that point. The point with which this Amendment is concerned is the earliest date on which it will be practicable for the Minister to have the vesting day. We think it much better to postpone the vesting date until the organisation has been properly set up, than to rush it through before the Minister and the Commission are ready to take over. That is the sole purpose of the Amendment.
One of the things to which the Government should give careful consideration, particularly in the light of their experience so far, is that, although they may be taking over organisations like the railways, or, to a lesser extent, the coalmines, which are going concerns, the actual machinery will take a long time to set up. Although it is not quite an analogous situation, some of us had experience of that sort of thing during the war. It happens that I was one of the original members of Eighth Army Headquarters when it was formed, one of the original members of the 18th Army Corps when that came into being, and one of the original officers of the Allied Headquarters staff in Italy. I know that it took a long time to get those headquarters working in any sort of way, even though the people in them were comparatively experienced, and even though they took over formations which had been fighting in those areas for a considerable time. There was no apparent reason why they should not have worked, but the fact was that they did not work, for a long time. I can assure


the right hon. Gentleman that Eighth Army Headquarters, which, I think, everybody will agree was a successful venture, took a long time to settle down before it worked at all. I believe that the hon. Member for Buckingham (Mr. Crawley) will remember those early days, and will bear me out.
I do not think it reasonable, when the provisions of this Bill cannot, in any case, come into force before the autumn, to expect the Commission to function as a going concern by 1st January next. We think that it is a physical impossibility for it to do so. This Amendment merely says that, supposing we are right, the Minister can, if he wishes, postpone the vesting date. There is no obligation on him to do so, and if the right hon. Gentleman can, by some remarkable set of circumstances, get this vast Commission going, and can get the people he wants, and his communications set up within two or three months, nothing in this Amendment stops him bringing in the vesting date then. We only ask him to consider that it may be possible that we are right, and that there may be great difficulties, mechanical and psychological, in getting the concern going. I ask him to accept this Amendment, and, at all costs, to postpone the vesting date until the Commission is ready.

Mr. Ernest Davies: We are discussing once more an Amendment which has been discussed thoroughly upstairs. I would like to draw the attention of the House to that fact, because the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton) that we are not able to discuss many Clauses does not hold water when speeches which were made upstairs are repeated in this House.

Mr. Assheton: Would the hon. Member allow me to remind the House and him, as he has not been here as long as I have, that one of the objects of the Report stage is to enable hon. Members who were not in the Committee to understand the principle of some of the matters that have been discussed?

Mr. Ernest Davies: I wonder where those Members are at present. When an Amendment such as this is put down and discussed with such reasonableness, being suspicious minded, I look to see what is

its real purpose. It is quite clear that the reason why hon. Members opposite are trying to eliminate from the Bill 1st January, 1948, as the date of transfer, is because they want to use the argument, possibly in another place, that the Minister has the power to change the date and it, therefore, gives them an opportunity to delay the enactment of this Bill. There are many reasons why we should fix this target of 1st January, 1948, for the transfer of the railway and canal undertakings to the Commission. The first is that this country cannot afford to delay the transfer, because at present the taxpayer is subsidising the railways to the extent of £11,500,000 a year. The control agreement figures for 1946 were published only a few weeks ago, and they showed that for that year £11,500,000 came out of the taxpayers' pockets to subsidise railway shareholders. If the date of transfer is delayed 12 months, it means that the deficit between the amount payable under the control agreement and the earnings of the railways has to be made up out of public funds.

Mr. Harold Macmillan: Mr. Harold Macmillan (Bromley) indicated dissent.

Mr. Ernest Davies: It is no use the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) shaking his head, because it is a fact that the railway control agreement provides for the payment to the railways of £43 million a year, and, as long as that agreement remains in force, that £43 million has to be paid to the railway companies, whether it is earned or not. At present it is not being earned, and the taxpayer is making up the deficit. Until the railways are transferred, that deficit will have to be paid unless the charges are put up sufficiently to bring in enough revenue to meet the deficit. The longer we delay the transfer, the more likely it is that the Minister will be driven to ask for increased fares and charges in order to make up that deficit, whereas once the transfer takes place there will be a saving of £17,250,000 in the amount of money that is to be paid out in interest Charges by the transferred undertaking. The £17,250,000 which is saved, on the basis of present earnings, is enough to meet and more than meet the deficit which at present is not being met out of earnings but out of taxes. On that ground alone, it is important that we effect the transfer of the railway and canal undertakings at the earnest possible time, and, in the view of


the Minister, the date fixed in the Bill is obviously the practical and the earliest date at which that can be done.
The right hon. Member for the City of London drew an analogy with the National Coal Board. That is not a valid analogy, because in the case of the collieries a large number of companies were unrelated and were not under Government control in the same way as the railways are under Government control today. The railway companies today are administered by the Railway Executive Committee as grouped railway undertakings, whereas when the colliery companies were transferred to the National Coal Board there were still many separate units. Be that as it may, we on this side of the House are satisfied that the transfer of the coalmines on the appointed day has proved successful, and the results of the transfer are being shown in the improved conditions in the mining industry.
A further reason that I would put forward is this. Until the railways have been transferred and the Transport Commission is set up, we cannot proceed with that co-ordination of road and rail transport which is essential to the reorganisation of the transport industry. The right hon. Member for the City of London suggested that it would be cheaper to delay the transfer, and that we would encounter a transport crisis next year if we attempted to transfer the railways to the Commission on 1st January, 1948. I maintain that a transport crisis is far more likely to arise if we do not effect that transfer, because we will not be in a position to bring about that greater measure of co-ordination which is essential to the increased efficiency of the transport industry. During the recent crisis we had to call upon the Army to transport coal, whereas if the transfer had already taken place there might have been available the nationalised road haulage to step in to meet that emergency. Therefore, I urge the Minister not to take notice of this Amendment, but to adhere to the appointed day, because only by so doing will he be able to bring about that urgently needed saving in the taxpayers' money on the one hand, and the much more urgently needed reorganisation of the transport industry on the other.

Mr. Frank Byers: I was interested in the remarks of the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest

Davies), but I suggest that he has got the wrong idea of this Amendment, at least, that there is some difference between us in the way in which we look at it. I was, and still am, a supporter of the nationalisation of the coalmines, and I think we should not be in as good a position as we are in today, without the different atmosphere which has been created in that industry. Similarly, I believe and have believed for many years in the nationalisation of the railways, but I suggest that the hon. Member is really arguing against the suggestion of the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton), that the vesting date should be postponed. The Amendment, of course, merely gives the Minister the ability to change the date, earlier or later as he wishes. I was impressed by the arguments which the hon. Member put forward about the possible saving to the Exchequer by bringing in the nationalisation of the railways on 1st January, instead of, say, next March. That being so, surely, if the Minister foresaw that he could nationalise the railways on 1st December, we should have a further saving to the Exchequer.

Mr. Ernest Davies: If I understood the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London correctly, he was arguing, on the analogy of the Coal Board, that it was impossible to transfer the railways on 1st January, If it was impossible to transfer them by then, surely he was suggesting a postponement, and not bringing the date forward.

Mr. Byers: That is just what I am suggesting—that the hon. Member has been taken in by the argument of the right hon. Member for the City of London, instead of addressing himself to the Amendment.

Mr. Davies: It was the right hon. Member for the City of London who moved the Amendment.

Mr. Byers: Yes, but this has to go into the Bill, and I suggest that, on administrative grounds, there is a great deal in what my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Poole) said about inability to foresee these things a long way ahead. On some occasions more time is required; on other occasions things can be done quicker than was foreseen four months earlier. This is just the sort of Amend-


ment which the Minister should accept in order to give the scheme flexibility. At present the scheme is too rigid. I do not believe that, in April, 1947, we have the right to say that, come what may, on 1st January next year we will launch this scheme. I believe it is right to say that on a date to be appointed by the Minister, when we know what the circumstances and the industrial situation are likely to be, we will announce that it shall be 1st December, 1st January or 30th March; the test being what will be the most efficient way of launching this scheme. I do not agree with the arguments put forward for postponing the vesting date, but I do suggest that the flexibility which this Amendment requires should be included in the Bill, and I ask the Minister to consider this seriously. I feel that I must vote for the Amendment.

4.30 p.m.

Mr. Sparks: I am not convinced of the soundness of the arguments of hon. Members opposite for delaying the vesting date for the taking over of railway and canal undertakings. Also, I am not very convinced by the alarmist remarks of the right hon. Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton). He and other hon. Members opposite who spoke were very careful not to mention the fact that a great deal of the preparatory work had already been undertaken in regard to railway undertakings. My hon. Friend the Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies) has also mentioned the fact that the railways have for several years, during the war period, been rented and controlled by the Government. That, in itself, has effected a certain amount of preparatory work, in the change-over from four separate railway companies to one unified national undertaking. There is in existence the Railway Executive Committee which co-ordinates the whole of the railways in this country on the basis of a national policy. Therefore, having regard to the facts that the ground has already been prepared over a number of years, and that the transfer of the undertakings on 1st January, 1948, is a matter' of great urgency, this is not a matter that needs to be postponed.

Mr. Byers: In that case, will the hon. Member tell us why he objects to this Amendment, which would allow the Minister to make 1st December the vesting date?

Mr. Sparks: After all is said and done, there must be an objective, an aim, and 1st January, 1948, is the date, and preparations can be made for that particular date.

Mr. Byers: Why not 1st December?

Mr. Sparks: If it were 1st December, what difference would it make?

Mr. Byers: We were told by the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies) that it would make a lot of difference, because the Government are paying something like £4 million a month.

Mr. Sparks: Probably there are financial considerations, but I am not dealing with them at the moment. I am concerned, not with the financial implications of the proposal but with the feasibility, from the point of view of organisa tion, of taking over the enterprises on 1st January, 1948. The right hon. Member for the City of London did not advance any financial reasons in support of the Amendment. I re-emphasise, that much of what has been said by hon Members opposite is quite redundant, having regard to the issue involved. There is no uncertainty or unreadiness in regard to organisation for the change over of the railways from their present status Government control to their future status of Government control. The change over will be quite easy and effective. As I said before, much groundwork has already been done, and it will not be so complicated a matter as hon. Members opposite envisage.
The right hon. Member for the City of London said that if this Amendment was not accepted there would be the prospect of a transport crisis next year. I emphasise the fact that there is a danger of a transport crisis unless we very quickly change over to the new form of organisation. Many things, which cannot be done under the existing form of Government control, require to be done. The organisation which would be responsible for the operation of the railways needs to be agreed as soon as possible, in order to push ahead with the necessary proposals for the proper organisation of the industry. We have heard a great deal from hon. Members opposite about the uncertainty in matters of this kind, and the consequences which arise from uncertainty whether an industry is being taken over or not. We should end any question of uncertainty in regard


to the railway industry by making It clear that 1st January, 1948, is the date upon which we have decided, so that all concerned will known quite clearly that that is the date Then, the necessary arrangements can be made in the mean time in order to prepare for the changeover. I was not certain what the right hon. Gentleman meant when he said that the Bill might never go on to the Statute -Book, that it may never become an Act I do not know how he arrives at that decision, I am sure.

Mr. Assheton: Life is very uncertain. I imagine that if the Government are still in power later on, this Bill might find its way on to the Statute Book. But it is possible that the Government will not be in power.

Mr. Sparks: The right hon. Member is making a prophecy which I do not doubt will not materialise. Short of some act of God unknown to us at the moment, I believe this Government will he here on 1st January, 1948, and for a good many years after that. I hope the right hon. Member was not hinting at what is likely to happen elsewhere. After all, we on this side of the House have come here with a definite and clear mandate to proceed to nationalise the railway and transport undertakings. Obviously I cannot go over the wider field on this Amendment, but it is admitted on all sides that the time has come for this change-over. Therefore, I ask hon. Members opposite not to adopt that attitude—although, of course, they are entitled to oppose the Bill and to advance Amendments to it -but to accept the fact that the people have expressed themselves on this mattes, and have been heard. We should be allowed to proceed with this Bill, because it is necessary in the interests of the country.

Sir Arthur Salter: I rise to recall, in a very few words, an experience which I think is most relevant, and not discouraging to the Government. I was an official working under the National Insurance Act, 191I. At that time the Government, conscious that they had a supremely difficult and complicated task immediately ahead of them, took the precaution of securing in the Act that they should have an option between bringing the Act into operation at a certain date or at a date six months later. I was in the office during the subsequent work of

preparation in the administration, and we ran into great difficulties which, for a time, looked to be insuperable before the earlier date. The provision of that option was a very great relief to the anxiety of those concerned with bringing the Act into operation. In fact, those difficulties were overcome more quickly than had at 'first seemed possible. and the Act was brought into operation on the earlier of the two dates contemplated. Nothing was lost by that option, and a great deal of anxiety was avoided. For a period it seemed likely that the option would mean the difference between administrative chaos and disaster and the successful inauguration of a great Measure of social insurance.
I need not draw any further moral from that. I emphasise again that this Amendment does not ask the Minister to postpone the date, and I am certainly not now arguing for any postponement. It only suggests that he may give himself the facility to postpone if he should find, in the course of his preparatory work in the next few weeks and months, that difficulties arise of such a character as to make the date at present appointed impracticable. Surely, that is reasonable.

Mr. Crawley: The hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. O. Poole), who has contributed to the discussions on this Bill from time to time with such skill, said that I might agree with him about the lack of organisation in the Eighth Army. I agree with that. In the early days, there was so little of it that I and many others were lost to that Army altogether, and did not recover our freedom for a considerable period. Had I known that he was responsible, or partly responsible, for that lack of organisation I might have had many things to say to him before now. But I would remind him that he was organising transport in the desert, and had to improvise as he went along. We are taking over a series of very well-established concerns, and I should have thought that the one thing absolutely certain in any old-fashioned concern is, that a period of suspended responsibility is the worst possible thing. Any transitional stage is always difficult, and it is suspended responsibility that is the most difficult element in it. The one essential to getting out of the transitional stage quickly, is to establish the earliest possible date for the change of responsibility.


Therefore, I urge that we should not give the Minister the licence which hon. Members opposite are suggesting, but should make it necessary for him on a given date to assume this responsibility, so that we may know where responsibility for this great concern does lie.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: As he usually does in his speeches, the hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies) produced one or two rather remarkable suggestions when he was resisting this Amendment. I think that anybody who studies the remarks made on the Government side of the House will see that they are covered by the Amendment as it stands on the Order Paper. It is perfectly possible, for the Minister, as he approaches the appointed day, to name 1st January, 1948, as the appointed day. The only reason, I understand, why the Amendment should not be accepted, and the vesting date made not later than this year, is that put forward by the hon. Member for Enfield—that the taxpayer is paying money to the shareholders. I put it to him that the shareholders are all taxpayers. I would also point out to him that these great railways are not being kept away from the community by a group of shareholders; and that their origin was due to the fact that people did, in the nineteenth century, put up money by free enterprise to build the great railway systems of the world. The hon. Member for Wednesbury (Mr. S. N. 'Evans) spoke a month ago about the Argentine railways, paying a tremendous tribute to their enterprise and thrift.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): The hon. Member is travelling very far from the Amendment.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: I am sorry that my argument was diverted. But I put it to the hon. Member for Enfield that his point is not a valid one, that the other arguments put forward by hon. Members opposite are covered by the Amendment as it stands, and that it is perfectly possible, when we get to October, November, or December, for the Minister to say, "I think 1st January is all right." But if he wished to put the date back to February or March he would be free to do so.

4.45 p.m.

The Minister of Transport (Mr. Barnes): The right hon. Gentleman who moved this

Amendment stated that he would be disappointed if I refused it. I propose to disappoint him immediately by stating that I see no reason at all for changing the view that I expressed in the Committee. What, in fact, does this Amendment propose? If we examine Clause 12 we see that the matter under discussion is as follows:
Subject to the provisions of this Act, the whole of the undertakings of the bodies of persons specified in the Third Schedule to this Act … shall, on the first day of January, 1948… vest by virtue of this Act in the Commission.
Now, the bodies and undertakings referred to in that Clause are the controlled undertakings. The railways, the canals, and the London Passenger Transport Board are all covered by the wartime agreement. These undertakings are already under the control of the Minister. They are under the control of the Minister now. In the normal way, that control would come to an end at the end of this year. The proposal in the Bill is that when that date arrives, they should pass automatically under the control of the Commission. We hear hon. Members talk about the problem that confronts the Minister, the necessity for time in which to prepare his plans and his schemes. One would imagine that what is involved here is that the whole organisation, operation and co-ordination of the whole transport system, as visualised in this scheme, is to be carried out on the vesting date, namely, 1st January.
Let me bring this discussion to an issue by dealing with the view expressed by the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers). After all, what does the Amendment propose? It would only offer to the Minister the opportunity, either to postpone the date, if it suits his convenience or meets his judgment, or, if the Minister so desires, to advance the date. So that it is not in dispute that it is left entirely to the discretion of the Minister. If that is the case, can anyone complain if I make up my mind now?

Hon. Members: Yes.

Mr. Byers: I had hoped that I had made the point, and that the Minister had appreciated it. I did say specifically that it would be wrong to say that in April we can decide what the prevailing conditions are going to be on 1st January next year, when we have a very difficult winter in front of us. My argu-


ment is that we should not make up on: minds now.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: May I remind the right hon. Gentleman that General Eisenhower had to put off D-Day for a certain amount of time, for reasons of organisation?

Mr. Barnes: Yes, but this is not D-Day. This is victory day. What I desire to stress is that it is not a question of trying to foresee now the situation that will prevail at the end of the year. From the beginning of the preparation of this Bill, we have had to determine the dates when the Bill would be ready for Parliament, and the arrangements of the Parliamentary time table, which made the Guillotine necessary. I say it with regret, and I shall explain that later, when the proper opportunity to do so arises. Nevertheless there was the necessity of a Parliamentary time table being fixed so that the Bill could pass to another place in plenty of time for consideration, and so that mature consideration could be given to the fixing of a vesting date, as a definite target day, on which the property would be transferred. That is all we are determining at the present time. On that date the property will be transferred from private to public ownership.
There is every advantage to the Minister, and to the scheme, in being able to appoint the Commission and to get the Executives ready so that they can take over the responsibility for the process of co-ordination commencing from 1st January. I speak now with some experience as the Minister who exercised a measure of Parliamentary control over this group of undertakings under wartime conditions, and I can state without any hesitation that the present arrangement, which was necessary in wartime, becomes, increasingly undesirable in peace conditions. The Minister of Transport, surrounded by his Departmental organisation, has no organisation effectively to exercise control over the management and direction of railway operations, canals, and the London Passenger Transport Board.
In peacetime conditions a transitional period is always undesirable. At a time when the nation is involved in all the serious matters of the readjustment of our national economy to peace conditions, I see no advantage in maintaining these

transitional arrangements which exist at present. The Railway Executive—that is, the four general managers of the railway companies—under the Control Agreement, is ostensibly under the control of the Minister, but that form of control is exercised only in a general way to deal with emergencies such as the fuel crisis, through which we have recently passed. The Minister is not surrounded with either the staff or the machinery to make effective an administration of that character. Therefore, it seems to me there is everything to be said for bringing into being as quickly as possible the Commission which is to be charged by Parliament with the task of the co-ordination and creation of an efficient and adequate transport system. I cannot see that there would be any advantage in the Minister's delaying the appointment of the Commission when the Bill receives the Royal Assent and becomes an Act of Parliament. The Parliamentary timetable has been made on the assumption that in the normal way the Bill will be able to receive the Royal Assent in July.
I would emphasise the important and vital part which the efficiency of our transport system, its cost, its capacity to discharge its job for the industries of this country, will play in the efficiency of British industry. During the last 12 months, we have seen the results of the ravages of war on British railways and British transport as a whole. To say that is to make no reflection on those who have been responsible for the conduct of the railways, or on any aspect of the Control Agreement. It is because, during the war, practically the whole of the weight of the transport of this country was channelled through the railways. It is not, and cannot be, the Minister's responsibility to initiate the necessary decisions to remedy that state of affairs. Will any hon. or right hon. Gentleman, whether he favours the principle of this Bill or opposes it, tell me that in a transitional period of this sort the railway directors can make decisions incurring large expenditure of capital? Of course, they cannot do so, because they foresee the position that the property is to pass out of their control. As a matter of fact, by the provisions of the Bill, they are precluded, except with the consent of the Minister, from undertaking certain capital expenditure. On the other hand, until we know the decision of Parliament, and


until the Bill receives the Royal Assent, it would be difficult to pledge public credit for any considerable expenditure that may be necessary.
Therefore, I say that the Minister would be shirking his responsibility if he did not definitely fix a vesting date and if he did not fix the shortest possible time, with the knowledge in his mind that it could be carried through within that period. The desirability of appointing the Commission and the Executives so that the preparatory work can be undertaken, and they can familiarise themselves with the responsibilities they will take over from the railway directors, is all on the side of definitely fixing the date. As the date has been fixed after very serious consideration, and as nothing has arisen in the preparation of the Bill or in the Parliamentary timetable so far which suggests that the date is wrong, I regret to say that I must refuse to accept the Amendment, and must ask the Committee to support me in going forward steadily and definitely to accomplish this change by 1st January, and to remove all further uncertainty, so that everybody concerned in the job will know exactly what he has to do and will gut on with doing it.

Mr. Harold Macmillan: This is one of the most important Amendments we have had an opportunity of discussing since the Bill returned from Committee. The. Minister was good enough to say that he regretted that these discussions were so curtailed. He reminded me a little of the Walrus and the Carpenter, but still, whether his regret is genuine or not, I share with him the regret that we have had so little opportunity of discussing such vital matters. This is a very important Amendment and a very important issue, and I was rather sorry the right hon. Gentleman did not meet it with a rather wider point of view.
The earlier part of the Debate was, I think, carried on partly under some misunderstanding of the purport, or, at any rate, the effect, of the Amendment. The hon. Member for Enfield (Mr. Ernest Davies) told us he had a naturally suspicious mind. I accept that. But he is also very inaccurate in many of his statements. He told us that the purpose of this Amendment was to continue the period when the shareholders of these undertakings might enjoy, for a month or

two longer, the revenues which were guaranteed under the wartime agreement. That remark was really not worthy of the hon. Member, although, indeed, it would not be a bad thing for these poor people, who, after all, are very deserving members of the community, and of whom I think the hon. Gentleman will hear something more in the future. But that is not the purpose of the Amendment.
5.0 p.m.
Nor is he very generous about the result of the wartime agreement. He tells us that at the present moment there is a loss of earnings under the rental agreement. That is true, but it is partly because the Minister has spent four months trying to make up his mind whether or not the fares should be raised to meet the enormously increased costs of railway undertakings. He will have to take that into consideration sometime, but so long as the directors are in charge he hedges, and puts the responsibility back on the railways. I would like to see him deal with that point as soon as possible. He studies and considers and goes into it, but he makes no decision; he knows that all railway costs, such as coal, steel and labour, have risen to an enormous extent, but he has never taken the responsibility of allowing the railway charges to rise in anything like the same proportion.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The right hon. Gentleman is surely going far beyond the Amendment.

Mr. H. Macmillan: I was only answering the Minister and pointing out that it is not quite fair to say that the purpose of the Amendment is to continue the rental system at a period when it is unprofitable. I think the hon. Member for Enfield would be the first to admit that during the period of the rental agreement £200 million have been paid to the Treasury by the railways during the period when that agreement was profit-able. One must consider it by and large, and by and large I think the Minister would admit that the revenue has gained by the rental system.

Mr. Ernest Davies: Of course the right hon. Gentleman realises that the 200 million was also paid by the taxpayer, because it was Government traffic which made it possible for the railways to earn these very large figures during the war.

Mr. H. Macmillan: Certainly; I quite agree. The truth is that we are all both taxpayers and users; one cannot separate the people of this country into particular lots or interests. If, however, it is said that at the present time the rental arrangement is costing the Treasury something, it must be remembered that the Treasury gained during another period. I say it is ungenerous of him to suggest that the purpose of this Amendment is merely to go on for a few weeks or months longer, giving the benefit of the rental system to the existing shareholders of the undertakings. That is not the purpose of this Amendment, and he knows it.
It is true that, as soon as the vesting date comes about, £20 million will be taken by an act of robbery and confiscation by the Government, but whether it takes place three weeks earlier or three weeks later is not important; the important thing, since we have embarked upon this system, is to make it work. After all, when we have passed the Second Reading we try and make it work; the thing is to happen when the Second Reading goes through, assuming that it goes through both Houses of Parliament and receives the Royal Assent, and assuming that the Minister survives. All these things are uncertain, all sorts of things may happen, but our object is to try and make the thing work in the best way we can Now the Minister tells us that he makes this decision now, and that it is, therefore, not necessary to give him this permissive right to put the date forward or back. He makes the decision now, today, 28th April—[HON. MEMBERS: "Thirtieth."]—whatever it may be.. [Laughter.] Hon. Members are very easily amused. The Minister may not be there on 1st January; other Ministers have passed on; Sir Ben Smith has gone his way, and the present Minister may go the same way; how do we know? Why should he say today that he makes that decision? By what right does he make it? We only want to give him the opportunity of having a certain scope within which he may make the decision when he knows more about it.
I am not saying that he may not then make the decision that it will be 1st January. It may easily come to that, but in this House we are fortunate enough to have a number of hon. Members with

great administrative experience, and I do not think there is anyone who has greater experience over a long period of service in the highest offices of the nation than the senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter). From his very long experience, the right hon. Gentleman tells us of the value to a Minister of feeling that he has this amount of play and flexibility in his hands. The right hon. Gentleman the Minister has not considered that in his reply, but it is quite an important point, and I should have thought he might have mentioned it. The right hon. Member for Acton—[HON. MEMBERS: "Honourable."] The hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks)—[Laughter.]—this extraordinary cachinnation on the part of hon. Gentlemen opposite must mark some great degree of nervosity on their part—told us that we had advanced a very long way because, under the control system, there had been so great an approach towards total co-ordination that there was not really very much more to be done. I do not think that is really true.
So far as I understand the control system, and I have seen something of it both from inside and outside the Government, the main structure of the railway system has not been changed at all. I think the right hon. Gentleman the Minister mentioned that in defending the importance of keeping the general structure—the general managers, the boards and so on. They have carried on the ordinary business of their undertakings, and all that has happened is that the Minister has been able to give broad general decisions. The daily management of the details of the work of the organisation, staff problems and all the enormous questions that form part of the management of such an undertaking, have not been in the hands of the Minister of Transport but in those of the managers of the separate railway companies and the London Passenger Transport Board. Therefore, very little has in fact been done, and a great deal remains to be done. The control has been general executive control, the Minister had the right to give orders to the general managers, but he had in no way interfered with or attempted to take on the actual management of the undertakings themselves. I think that would be a fair statement.
Therefore, there is this problem of creating a new system and first setting


up the Commission itself—about which the Minister has told us on various occasions that he has not yet even begun to think about the immense problem of choosing the right people. And we must have some efficient people, with all the duds there will have to be put in for party reasons. Then he comes along and tells us that he cannot postpone the programme which he has laid out because there is so much to do, while the hon. Member for Acton and the hon. Member for Enfield have told us that it could easily be carried through because there was so little that remained to be done. I think the Minister has given a much more correct account of the working of the system in the control period than the hon. Gentlemen behind him. Then the Minister give his little piece about "victory day:" Victory for what? [HON. MEMBERS: "Socialists."] For whom? For the Socialist Party? Victory followed by spoils, I suppose. If this is the mood in which he is to approach this immense undertaking, I am sorry for the nation which will have to suffer.
Finally, he brought forward the argument which I am bound to say weighed a great deal with me and made me almost feel that perhaps on balance he was right. We simply asked for a permissive Amendment which would have given him flexibility to fix the date as might have suited him. The right hon. Gentleman rejected the proposal. There is a great deal to be said, if one is in high command, for not tying oneself down too rigidly. Most people in such positions would have followed the advice which was given from below the Gangway and would have taken a little bit of play These things are rather difficult to carry out exactly as one wants them. There is a great argument in favour of so doing. The right hon. Gentleman rejected it. His reasons were rather interesting. He said that the present state of uncertainty was bad for the industry. As he said, directors cannot embark upon any great capital reconstruction or make any big scheme. They cannot set about the solution of any big problem. Therefore, said the right hon. Gentleman, it was vital to bring the uncertainty to an end in order that the great new work which we all knew had to be done in reconstruction might take place as soon as possible. No more

damning condemnation of all that the right hon. Gentleman's Government is doing in regard to gas, electricity and steel, as well as other things, can be conceived.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I hope the House will agree to come to a decision now.

Mr. Maclay: I did not try to intervene in this Debate because I thought the Minister might in his closing remarks cover the point in which I was interested. I think it is relevant to remind the House that the Minister said that after the vesting date the railway ports would come under the control of the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive. Can we not now get this point absolutely clear? It seems incredible that that transfer should happen as early as 1st January. Could the Minister possibly say on what date actual executive responsibility for handling the railway ports will be transferred? If one wishes to write at the present time to the authority responsible for a Great Western Railway port, for example, one writes to the office of the Great Western Railway. On 1st January, will that procedure be changed? Will one then have to write to the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive? We had what appears now to be a vain hope that the Minister would say that he ought to have more time in this matter. Another difficulty is whether, under the Bill as now drafted, a scheme will be made under Clause 64 to enable the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive to handle the ports. That is a technical point which the Minister should consider.

Mr. Barnes: If the hon. Member had listened to what I said, he would know that I tried to define exactly what we are discussing in the Amendment. We are discussing merely the transfer of the property of these controlled undertakings to the Commissions on 1st January. It does not relate to schemes and matters of that description. The Amendment deals with the date at which the property of the undertakings will be transferred from private ownership to public ownership.

Mr. Maclay: I am sorry. I thought the Minister indicated last night that on that date effective control of railway ports would pass to the Docks and Inland Waterways Executive. It is not merely a matter of ownership but of effective control.

5.15 p.m.

Mr. McKie: I suggest that the right hon. Gentleman would have been well advised to accept the Amendment, in his own interests. The Amendment was put down to make the Bill, bad though it is, a little more neat and tidy. In what was said by the hon. Member for Acton (Mr. Sparks) I detected a spirit of uneasiness. He made a great point out of what was said by a right hon. Gentleman on this side of the House, with regard to the uncertainty of the lifetime of the Government and of this Parliament. I think I am entitled to reply to those remarks of the hon. Gentleman, so far as the limits of Order allow. The hon. Gentleman said he hoped that my right hon. Friend did not mean that there should be protracted discussion in another place which might prevent the Measure reaching the Statute Book before the end of the Session. The time table has been put on. It is unprecedented to have a time-table for the Report stage—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That question has been disposed of long ago. The matter before the House is the Amendment. If the hon. Member will forgive my saying so, he has not so far addressed one word of his speech to that Amendment

Mr. McKie: In opening my speech I did say that I thought the right hon. Gentleman would have been well advised to accept the Amendment, and I went on to say a word or two arising out of the speech of the hon. Member for Acton. As a time-table has been put on, I thought it would be perfectly permissible for Amendments which have not been discussed in this House to be discussed in another place.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 289; Noes, 135.

Division No. 160.]
AYES.
[5.17 p.m


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Cocks, F. S.
Goodrich, H. E.


Adams, W T. (Hammersmith, South)
Coldrick, W.
Gordon-Walker, P. C.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Collindridge, F.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Collins, V. J.
Grey, C F.


Alpass, J. H.
Colman, Miss G. M
Grierson, E.


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Comyns, Dr. L.
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)


Attewell, H. C.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)


Austin, H. Lewis
Cove, W. G.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Crawley, A.
Gunter, R. J.


Bacon, Miss A.
Grossman, R. H. S
Guy, W. H.


Baird, J.
Daggar, G
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)


Balfour, A.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Hall, W. G.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R


Barstow, P. G.
Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Hannan, W (Maryhill)


Barton, C.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Hardy, E. A


Battley, J. R.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Harrison, J



Bechervaise, A. E.
Deer, G.
Haworth, J.


Benson, G.
Delargy, H. J
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)


Beswick, F.
Diamond, J
Hewitson, Capt. M.


Bing, G. H. C
Dobbie, W.
Hobson, C. R.


Binns, J.
Dodds, N. N.
Holman, P.


Blackburn, A. R
Driberg, T. E. N.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)


Blenkinsop, A.
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
House, G.


Blyton, W. R.
Dumpleton, C. W.
Hoy, J.


Bottomley, A. G.
Durbin, E. F. M.
Hubbard, T.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W
Dye, S.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)



Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Edelman, M.
Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton. W.)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)


Bramall, Major E. A.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Irving, W. J.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Janner, B.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)

Jay, D. P. T.


Brown, George (Belper)
Ewart, R.
Jager, G. (Winchester)


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Fairhurst, F.
Jeger, Dr. S. W (St. Pancras, S.E.)


Bruce, Maj. D. W. T
Farthing, W. J
John, W.


Buchanan, G
Field, Capt. W J
Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)


Burden, T. W
Follick, M.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)


Burke, W. A
Foot, M. M
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Forman, J. C.
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)


Callaghan, James
Foster, W (Wigan)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)


Carmichael, James
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)
Keenan, W.


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
King, E. M.



Chamberlain, R. A
Gallacher, W.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E


Champion, A. J
Ganley, Mrs. C. S
Kinley, J


Chater, D.
Gibbins, J.
Kirkwood, D


Chetwynd, C. R
Gibson, C. W
Lavers, S.


Clitherow, Dr. R
Gilzean, A
Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J




Lee, F. (Hulme)
Parkin, B. T
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock) 
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Leslie, J. R.
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Levy, B. W.
Peart, Capt. T. F.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Piratin, P.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Lewis, J (Bolton)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Popplewell, E.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Logan, D. G.
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Thurtle, E.


Longden, F.
Price, M. Philips
Tiffany, S.


Lyne, A. W.
Pritt, D. N.
Timmons, J.


McAdam, W.
Proctor, W. T
Titterington, M. F


McEntee, V. La T.
Pryde, D. J.
Tolley, L.


McGhee, H. G.
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G.


McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Randall, H. E
Turner-Samuels, M.


Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Ranger, J.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


McKinlay, A. S.
Rankin, J
Viant, S. P.


McLeavy, F.
Reeves, J.
Walker, G. H.


Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Rhodes, H
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Richards, R.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Mann, Mrs. J.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Warbey, W. N.


Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Robens, A
Watkins, T. E.


Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Watson, W. M.


Marquand, H. A.
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)



Sargood, R.
Weitzman, D.


Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Scollan, T.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Martin, J. H.
Scott-Elliot, W.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Mathers, G.
Shackleton, Wing-Cdr. E. A. A.
West, D. G.


Mellish, R. J.
Sharp, Granville
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Messer, F.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Mitchison, G. R
Shurmer, P.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Monslow, W.
Silverman, S. S (Nelson)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.


Montague, F.
Simmons, C. J.
Wilkes, L.


Moody, A. S.
Skeffington-Lodge, T C
Wilkins, W. A.


Morley, R.
Skinnard, F. W.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)


Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Mort, D L
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Moyle, A.
Snow, Capt. J. W.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Murray, J. D
Sorensen, R. W.
Williamson, T.


Nally, W.
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.
Willis, E.


Naylor, T. E.
Sparks, J. A.
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Neal, H. (Claycross)
Stamford, W.
Wise, Major F. J


Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Steele, T.
Wyatt, W.


Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Stephen, C.
Yates, V. F.


Noel-Buxton, Lady
Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Oldfield, W. H.
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Paget, R. T.
Stubbs, A. E.



Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Swingler, S.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.


Palmer, A. M F.
Sylvester, G. O.
Mr. Pearson and Mr. Daines.


Parker, J
Symonds, A. L





NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Hutchison, Lt.-Cm. Clark (E'b'rgh W.)


Amory, D. Heathcoat
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Jeffreys, General Sir G.


Assheton, Rt. Hon. R
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Jennings, R.


Astor, Hon. M.
Drayson, G. B.
Joynson-Hicks, Hon. L. W


Baldwin, A. E.
Duthie, W. S.
Lambert, Hon. G.


Barlow, Sir J.
Eccles, D. M.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.


Baxter, A. B.
Eden, Rt. Hon. A.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H
Elliot, Rt. Hon. Walter
Lindsay, M. (Solihull)


Beechman, N. A
Erroll, F. J.
Linstead, H. N.


Birch, Nigel
Foster, J. G. (Northwich)
Lipson, D. L.


Boothby, R.
Fox, Sir G.
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)


Bowen, R.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Low, Brig. A. R. W.


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T.
Glyn, Sir R.
McCallum, Maj. D.


Bullock, Capt M.
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G
Macdonald, Sir. P. (I of Wight)


Butcher, H. W.
Grant, Lady
Mackeson, Brig. H. R.


Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)
Gridley, Sir A.
McKie, J. H. (Galloway)


Byers, Frank
Grimston, R. V.
Maclay, Hon. J. S.


Clarke, Col. R. S.
Gruffydd, Prof. W. J.
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)


Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G.
Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)


Cole, T. L.
Harris, H. Wilson
Maitland, Comdr. J. W.


Conant, Maj. R. J. E.
Harvey, Air-Comdre A V.
Manningham-Buller, R. E.


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Haughton, S. G.
Marlowe, A. A. H.


Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C.
Head, Brig. A. H.
Marsden, Capt. A.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.
Marshall, D. (Bodmin)


Crowder, Capt. John E
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Maude, J. C.


Cuthbert, W. N.
Hollis, M. C.
Mellor, Sir J.


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)


De la Bère, R.
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Digby, S. W.
Hulbert, Wing-Cdr. N. J.
Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.







Neven-Spence, Sir B
Renton, D.
Taylor, Vice-Adm E A. (P'dd't'n, S.)


Nicholson, G.
Roberts, W (Cumberland, N.)
Teeling, William


Nield, B. (Chester)
Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland
Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)


Noble, Comdr. A H. P
Ropner, Col. L.
Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)


Orr-Ewing, I. L.
Ross, Sir R. D. (Londonderry)
Thorp, Lt.-Col. R A. F


Peake, Rt. Hon. O.
Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J. A
Touche, G. C


Peto, Brig. C. H. M
Shephard, S. (Newark)
Va[...], W. M F.


Pickthorn, K.
Smith, E. P. (Ashford)
Wadsworth, G.


Ponsonby, Col C. E
Spearman, A C M.
Walker-Smith, D.


Poole, O. B. S (Oswestry)
Spence, H. R.
Ward, Hon G. R.


Prescott, Stanley
Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


Prior-Palmer, Brig[...]
Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)
York, C.


Rayner, Brig. R.
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J (Moray)



Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)
Studholme, H. G.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES


Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillheaad)
Taylor, C S (Eastbourne)
Mr. Drewe and




Commander Agnew

CLAUSE 13.—(Bodies whose undertakings are to vest in Commission.)

Mr. Barnes: I beg to move, in page 13, line 18, to leave out "leased to," and to insert "worked by."
This Amendment and the following Amendment are drafting Amendments. Members of the Committee will recollect that we deleted the Salisbury Railway and Market House Company from the Third Schedule because that body long ceased to be a railway company, and only a very small part of its property was now connected with the Southern Railway Cotnpany—it is nothing more than a siding. 'These Amendments are for the purpose of describing more accurately the transaction which exists between this company and the Southern Railway Company.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 13, line 19, leave out "rent payable under the lease," and insert:
annual sum payable under the working agreement."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 14.—(General effect of vesting of undertakings.)

5.30 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 14, line 20, at the end, to insert:
(d) any reference (however worded and whether express or implied) to the directors or any director of the body were, as respects anything falling to be done on or after the date of transfer, a reference to such person as the Commission may appoint; and
(e) any reference (however worded and whether express or implied) to any officer or any servant of the body were, as respects anything falling to be done on or after the date of transfer, a reference to such person as the Commission may appoint or, in default of appointment, to the officer or servant of the Commission who corresponds as nearly as may he to the first mentioned officer or servant; and.
This Clause provides that the property of the body shall vest in the Commission,

and that contracts made by a body which is taken over shall, equally, vest in the Commission. Therefore, you have to read in the name of the Commission, instead of the body in the contract which is transferred. The Amendment seeks to remedy two omissions in the Clause as it stands at present. It seeks to deal with the case where there is a reference, in the contract which is taken over, to directors and, similarly, where there is a reference to a servant of the body whose undertaking is taken over. It provides that when a contract is transferred to the Commission the word "director" has to be read as if it referred to somebody appointed by the Commission, and the word "servant" is to be deemed to refer to some equivalent employee of the Commission.
May I give an example of what I have in mind? You may have an agreement that certain works should be done to the satisfaction of the chief clerk of the railway company. That contract is taken over, so you have to read into it the name of the Commission instead of the name of the railway company, and read something instead of the chief clerk. The Amendment provides that you have to read the equivalent servant of the Commission instead of the chief clerk of the railway company.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 14, line 27, leave out "two," and insert "four."—[The Solicitor-General.]

The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 14, line 33, at the end, to insert:
Provided that any agreement to which the body were a party which cannot have effect as modified in the manner provided by this Subsection by reason only that, if it were so modified, no person other than the Commission would have rights or liabilities thereunder shall cease to have effect as respects anything falling to be done on or after the date of transfer


This Amendment remedies an omission of a rather technical character in the Clause. It provides that certain contracts, instead of being taken over, shall cease. The contracts with regard to which the proviso operates are those made, for example, between a railway company and a haulage contractor. Supposing that a contract is taken over by the Commission when they take over the undertaking of the railway company and the haulage contractor, the result would be that the contract would be one between the Commission and itself. That, of course, would be meaningless, and could not be enforced. Proper drafting requires that contracts of that sort shall be made to come to an end on transfer.

Mr. Selwyn Lloyd: What would be the position if a third party had rights under such a contract?

The Solicitor-General: The hon. Member will see that the Amendment applies only to contracts in respect of which can be said that no person other than the Commission shall have rights or liabilities. If a third party had rights the contract would not be within the ambit of the Amendment.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 14, line 35, leave out "(d)", and insert (f)."

In line 41, after "references," insert:
in paragraphs (b), (c), (d), (e) and (g) of that Subsection.

In line 42, after first "body," insert:
to any directors, officers or servants of the body.

In line 43, leave out from beginning, to "include," in line 44.—[The SolicitorGeneral.]

The Financial Secretary to the Treasury (Mr. Glenvil Hall): I beg to move, in page 15, line 26, at the end, to insert:
(b) there shall not, by reason of the vesting, be transferred to the Commission any liability of the body in respect of any security of the body created, in pursuance of any enactment, as collateral security for a loan to the body or to another person.
This Amendment runs with two other Amendments which are consequential to it—in page 15, line 43, and in page 17, line 34. The general object of this Clause is to put the Commission in possession of all rights, and subject it to all the obligations, covered by several thousands of

private Acts and a number of public Acts dealing with these undertakings. The object of Subsection (6, a), to which this Amendment relates, is to stipulate that when vesting does take place, and rights and obligations are assumed by the Commission, the Commission, when assuming liability for certain loans, shall not be obliged to do what an undertaking has had to do in the past when those loans were raised—give collateral security. 'There will be no hardship resulting from this, because the security of the loan will be quite as good as, possibly better than, it is now. It will have the credit of the British Transport Commission behind it and, as the House knows, the stock of that Commission will have the Treasury guarantee to support it.
The circumstances in which collateral security was given by the railways arose when the four main line companies secured Statutory powers to create debenture stocks equal to the total of the borrowings which they were allowed to undertake from the Railway Finance Corporation. The obligation of the London Passenger Transport Board was to raise debenture stocks, Class A, B, and C, but such stock was never, in fact, raised. So, this Clause is confined to the four main line railway companies, and to the 4 per cent. debenture stock which they had to raise as collateral security.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 15, line 43, at end, insert:
(7) Without prejudice to any other liability of the Commission in respect of a loan to the body or to any other person—

(a) any security of the body which has been created in pursuance of any enactment as collateral security for the loan shall be cancelled as from the date of transfer;
(b) any provision of any enactment or agreement requiring any security of the body to be created as collateral security for the loan shall cease to have effect as from the date of transfer; and
(c) any provision of any enactment or agreement with respect to the redemption of any security of the body outstanding at the date of transfer which was created in pursuance of any enactment as collateral security for the loan shall cease to have effect as from the date of transfer."—[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]

CLAUSE 15.—(Disclaimer of agreements.)

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport (Mr. G. R. Strauss): I beg to move, in page 16,


line 16, to leave out "or obligations."
Yesterday, I indicated a series or Amendments, all with the same purpose, as I did not wish to make a speech upon each. This Amendment is consequential on those other Amendments.

Amendment agreed to.

The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 16, line 44, at the end, to insert:
or arising by reason of the frustration thereof.
This Amendment remedies a difficulty which exists in the Clause as it stands. Clause 15 (3) provides that a disclaimed contract shall not vest in the Commission. Any contract vests in the Commission, but when one comes to Clause 15 (3) one finds certain contracts which are not in approved form, can be disclaimed by the Commission, and these contracts do not vest. In the event of a contract being disclaimed under the provisions of the Law Reform (Frustrated Contracts) Act, 1943, certain rights arise. Money which has been paid by one party to another under the contract can be reclaimed. What the Amendment seeks to do is to provide that not merely shall the disclaimed contract not vest in the Commission, but also that those rights which arise by the virtue of the contract being disclaimed shall not vest in the Commission, but remain in the body whose undertaking is taken over.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: I beg to move, in page 17, line 21, at the end, to insert "or varied."
This is to exempt from disclaimer any contracts entered into in the ordinary way of business by the railway companies before January, 1947; from which date the Minister has stated that he would be prepared to exempt from disclaimer any contracts entered into in the normal course of business. In order to make the matter absolutely correct Subsection (5) should be altered by the words in this Amendment, and the subsequent two Amendments. Perhaps, for simplification, I had better read Subsection (5) as it will now appear:
Nothing in this section applies to any agreement for, or contained in, a lease or other tenancy or any agreement made, or varied, whether before or after the passing of this Act, with the previous consent or subsequent approval of the Minister "—

Those are the key words—
given in writing either generally or specially.
I do not think that there can be any controversy about this.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 17, line 23, leave out "in writing," and insert "or subsequent approval."

In line 23, after "given," insert "in writing."—[The Solicitor-General.]

CLAUSE 16.—(Compensation.)

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 17, line 34, after "transfer," to insert:
or securities created in pursuance of any enactment as collateral security for a loan to any such body or to any other person.
This is consequential on the Amendment which I moved a few minutes ago at page 15, line 26.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 17.—(Valuation of securities for compensation purposes.)

5.45 p.m.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I beg to move, in page 18, line 22, at the end, to insert:
other than securities guaranteed by the Treasury.
Those hon. Members who sat on the Committee dealing with this Bill will remember that in the course of the discussions I gave, on behalf of my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and undertaking that either later during the Committee stage, if that were possible, or certainly on the Report stage provision would be made in the appropriate places in the Bill to carry out the undertaking that the three per cent L. P.T. B. guaranteed stock (1967–72) should be given special treatment. As I think the House knows, the decision is that a special Transport Board stock should be created which will carry with it the same rate of interest and will be paid off, in due course, on the same dates and on the same terms as the present stock. Under Part I of the Fourth Schedule this is listed to be taken over at 107⅞. That will not continue to apply. Apart from that, special Transport Commission stock will be created, which will run on the same term in every particular as the present L.P.T.B. stock. This Amendment enables that to be done.

Mr. Assheton: We, on this side of the House, are sincerely thankful that the Government have come to this decision I was almost going to say "grateful," but it would be a most extraordinary thing to say that we were thankful to the Government for implementing the obligations of His Majesty's Treasury. That is something which we expect. When this Bill was first presented, one of its most serious blots was that Government guaranteed security was to be treated in this extraordinary way, and when the Financial Secretary talks about "special treatment" being given to this stock, I think that he is exaggerating All that he is doing is to implement the guarantee of His Majesty's Treasury in the way these guarantees have always been implemented. I suppose that the Chancellor of the Exchequer realises that if he were not to implement the guarantee of this stock no one would have any confidence in the transport stock issue which was also to be subject to Government guarantee. It is a matter for great regret that the Govern ment have not made it possible for the obligations of the railway companies to be implemented in the same way. The railway companies have security with certain fixed dates of redemption. These obligations are not being taken over by the Government, and the holders of those stocks are therefore being defeated and defrauded of their proper security.

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: I beg to move, in page 19, line 36, at the end, to insert:
(c) the holder of any securities of a body may appoint the directors of the body to act as his representatives for the purpose of being heard in any proceedings with respect to those securities before the arbitration tribunal; and where such an appointment is made the arbitration tribunal shall hear the directors instead of that holder.
This is consequential on the Amendment to page i8, line 22, which has been already moved.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: I should like to say a few words of thanks to the Minister and his staff for their efficiency and courtesy in getting this Amendment—

Mr. Strauss: The hon. Gentleman is on the next Amendment.

Mr. Dodds-Parker: I do not think so.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): There is some confusion owing to the order of printing of the

Amendments on the Order Paper. There are two Amendments to page 19, line 36, and the one we are taking is to insert the paragraph (c).

Mr. Dodds-Parker: Once again I should Like to thank the Minister and his staff for the system he has instituted as a result of the Guillotine, thus ensuring that certain Amendments are called. I put this Amendment down on Friday afternoon at 3.30, and I was delighted to see it on the Order Paper next morning with the Minister's name added to it and that of my hon. Friend the Member for Western Dorset (Mr. Digby). I think we must thank both the Minister and his staff for taking this action so promptly. We on this side of the House do not mind finding ourselves associated with the Minister, when he takes action which we regard as right and proper. Elsewhere among Members opposite there is an idea that there is something wrong if the Government gets support from this side of the House. In this particular case the Amendment proposed is correct, and I thank the Minister for having accepted it

Amendment agreed to.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: I beg to move, in page 19, line 36, at the end, to insert:
(4) The value of the securities specified in Part III of the said Fourth Schedule, being securities guaranteed by the Treasury, shall be deemed to be the nominal value of those securities.

This is consequential.

Sir John Mellor: The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Transport says that this Amendment is consequential. Is it consequential upon the Amendment moved by the Financial Secretary to the Treasury in page 18, line 22, or is it consequential to the Amendment he himself has just moved?

Mr. Strauss: This Amendment is consequential on the Amendment which was put down by the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) and the hon. Member for Western Dorset (Mr. Digby), which was accepted by the Minister, and on which the hon. Member for Banbury has just spoken.

Mr. Assheton: I think there is a mistake here. If the Parliamentary Secretary is -addressing his mind to the same Amendment as I am thinking of, his remarks would be relevant. Perhaps he will tell us to what Amendment he is speaking.

Mr. Strauss: The Amendment in page 19, line 36

Mr. Assheton: There are two Amendments in page 19, line 36. One of them is in the name of the Minister and of my two hon. Friends behind me, the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) and the hon. Member for Western Dorset (Mr. Digby), with regard to which my hon. Friend the Member for Banbury has made some courteous remarks to the Front Bench opposite. There is another Amendment dealing with a different topic and the Parliamentary Secretary's remarks would not be relevant to it. Perhaps he would give us a word of explanation.

Mr. Strauss: The Amendments have been taken in a different order from that which I expected. The Amendment to insert paragraph (4) is consequential on the Amendment in page 18, line 22, which has been moved and accepted. The other Amendment which is in the name of the Minister and also of the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker)—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Minister is aware that we have already passed that Amendment and cannot debate it again.

Mr. Byers: We seem to be getting into a slight difficulty, and I do not know whether what I have to say on this difficulty is a point of Order, though I rather think that it is. We have in the Bill already a paragraph (4) which starts with the words "In this section. …" and now we are to have another paragraph (4) which starts with the words "The value of the securities. …" It seems to me that there is something wrong with the drafting.

Mr. Oliver Poole: On a further point of Order. Why is it that having taken the Amendment in the name of the Minister and the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds-Parker) and the hon. Member for Western Dorset (Mr. Digby) we are now going back to an Amendment which is in the name of the Minister only?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think I will deal with the two points of Order before I have any more. There seems to be some confusion, which is due to the compilation of the Amendments on the Order Paper. The Amendment which is to page 19, line 36, to insert paragraph (c), we have already passed. The next Amendment we have to consider is the one

above it on the Order Paper. It is a question of printing. I hope that the House is now ready to come to a decision on the Amendment under consideration.

Sir J. Mellor: I should like to ask tot your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. The Amendment under consideration refers to Part III of the Fourth Schedule, but I find that there are only two parts to the Fourth Schedule. Could I have your guidance as to what we are discussing?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I gather that later it will be moved to add a Part III to the Schedule.

Mr. Maclay: The Parliamentary Secretary said a few moments ago, when trying to disentangle the confusion which has arisen, that this Amendment was consequential to the one in the name of the hon. Member for Banbury (Mr. Dodds Parker). Is that one still to come, or have we finished with it?

Mr. Strauss: I am afraid I was led into the confusion because the Amendments were not taken in the order in which they stand on the Order Paper.

Mr. Maclay: Then there is nothing consequential on the Amendment in the name of the hon. Member for Banbury?

Mr. Assheton: We have not yet solved the problem put to us by the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor). This Amendment refers to Part III of the Fourth Schedule and although it has been suggested that at some future date another part is to be added to the Schedule there are at the moment only two parts to that Schedule and we have not had the further Amendment brought before us. Would it not be right, therefore, to refer to the part of the Schedule which is, in fact, to be inserted in the Bill?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: This Amendment refers forward to a new Amendment to be moved later. If the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton) will look at page 2455 of the Order Paper he will see there is an Amendment, in page 127, line 8, to leave out "Part I" and insert "Parts I and III."

Mr. Assheton: Supposing that Amendment were not carried, what would happen then?

Mr. Pritt: The Government would fall.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I do not think that I am called upon to answer a hypothetical case of that kind.

Mr. Assheton: I should like to ask then if that is the case, is it in Order to move this Amendment to page 19, line 36?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I understand that this has been done before and with the consent of the House I propose to do it again.

Mr. Renton: The matter is really quite simple, and it is only a question of an explanation from the Government being required. This Amendment and the one which comes later merely implement the Government's change of policy, which we welcome, with regard to the guaranteed stock of the London Passenger Transport Board. Could we have a word of explanation on that?

Mr. Oliver Poole: I should like to support the remarks of my hon. Friend the Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton). This Amendment was moved by the Parliamentary Secretary when he thought he was moving the next Amendment and he thought it was consequential on one we had already discussed. After that we got the point raised by the hon. Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor) and it now transpires that this Amendment we are discussing at the moment has reference to another Amendment later on. I suggest that we cannot accept this Amendment without a further explanation from the Parliamentary Secretary of exactly what it means and on what it is consequential.

6.0 p.m.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: May I try again to help the House? The Amendment we are now considering is consequential on that which was moved in page 18, line 22. But it also refers to a subsequent Amendment which will be moved later and to which Mr. Deputy-Speaker has just referred.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I hope that the mists have been cleared away and that the House is now prepared to reach a decision.

Sir William Darling: I am afraid the mists have not been cleared away or all of us. Do I understand that paragraph (4) on page 19 now becomes paragraph (5) in view of the acceptance of the Amendment in page 19,

line 36? Otherwise there will be two paragraph (4)'s in the Bill.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There will be a reprint and a renumbering.

Sir W. Darling: That clears up the confusion which was in my mind.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: Perhaps I might help to clear away the mists once and for all by asking hon. Members if they will refer to Clause 87, Subsection (4), which makes it quite obvious what we are trying to do by means of those particular Amendments. As I believe the House is aware, certain stocks are set down in Part I and Part II of the Fourth Schedule, as far as these are concerned all but one of those there listed will be taken over. What we are doing by this series of Amendments is to take out the L.P.T.B. stock. It is there listed at 107⅞ and it will go back to its nominal value and be placed in a Part of its own. Its present rate of interest is to be continued and it will be redeemed between 1967 and 1972, as provided for when the loan was issued. I should add that although my right hon. Friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer has acceded to the general wish expressed from the other side of the House that this special category should be established he does not for one moment admit that there would have been any broken faith on the part of the Government had the stockholders remained as they were originally placed in this Schedule. The guarantee was a guarantee against default by the L.P.T.B. and, as we all know, the L.P.T.B. has not defaulted.

Mr. Nigel Birch: The right hon. Gentleman the Financial Secretary has undone all the good of repentance which the Chancellor has achieved. The Chancellor went to Canossa and stood barefoot in the courtyard and the Parliamentary Secretary is now undoing it all. He now says that special treatment is being given to this particular stock to honour the Government's bond, and by not admitting any past faults he is leaving open the whole question as to whether in future the Chancellor will in fact honour his bond on guaranteed stocks. It was that doubt, with all the difficulties and dangers that flow from it, that presumably induced the right hon. Gentleman the Chancellor to repent, and by what he has said the Parliamentary Secretary has undone all that the Chancellor achieved

Mr. Brendan Bracken: I think the Financial Secretary really should revise the remarks he has just addressed to the House. He has announced that this stock is in a special category but the only speciality about it was that when the British Government took over the L.P.T.B. they also took over their obligations. The Government are, in fact, fulfilling the promises which they assumed when they became possessed of the L.P.T.B. I do hope that the Financial Secretary will weigh the advice given him by my hon. Friend. It is an incredible thing for the representative of the Treasury to say that on this, a special occasion, they will fulfil their obligations but that for the future they must warn people that the Chancellor is acceding to requests from this side of the House and was good enough to give way on this point. We do not flatter ourselves that it was remarks made on this side of the House that forced the Chancellor to change his mind. The real reason was that he was informed by his advisers that the credit of the British Government would be in danger unless he fulfilled the obligations of the L.P.T.B.
I must say to the Financial Secretary that it is a pity that when his master is away he should chuck away such little prestige as the Chancellor regained when he decided that it was part of his duty to honour British Government obligations. It is a pity that we have such an infirm Government and if we cannot have senior Ministers present—apart from the Home Secretary—who really are responsible for these departmental decisions, it is a very foolish thing for the Financial Secretary to throw away in an airy way the little credit which the Chancellor gained by facing up to his responsibilities to the L.P.T.B. shareholders. We all know that the Financial Secretary is a delight and an ornament to this House and a man full of good will, and we are anxious to help him. I suggest to him that he ought really to withdraw what he has said and not talk about these special categories. The only special category that matters in this connection is the honour of British Government securities or those taken over by the British Government. The only thing that made the Chancellor change his mind was the fact that he knew that Government credit was threatened, so do not let us hear any more about acceding to the remarks from this side of the House.

Mr. Pritt: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, I would ask you to invoke the rule against needless repetition. The right hon. Gentleman has said three things. He has said some of them three times and some six times, and we understood them the first time.

Mr. Bracken: I must say that it comes ill from a lawyer, who is feed to repeat himself, to intervene in the way the hon. and learned Gentleman has done.

Mr. Pritt: On a further point of Order, is it right for a right hon. Gentleman, however contemptible, to slander a profession?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We seem to be getting into rather troubled waters, and I would suggest that we now let the matter drop.

Mr. Bracken: I am entirely in favour of letting the matter drop, but very anxious that the Financial Secretary should clear up the error into which he has fallen by telling the House that there is no special reason for this change of mind, except that the. Chancellor found that it was necessary.

Mr. Walter Fletcher: In the course of his remarks the Minister said that this was not a question of broken faith. It is, I think, a question of mended faith, and judging from his remarks it is not even invisibly mended. I think it is extremely important that he should now make a statement that clears away the confusion. There is no doubt that the possibility of the Chancellor implementing his cheap money, cheaper money and cheapest money policy would be seriously endangered unless credit were restored by an action of this kind.

Mr. Assheton: May I be allowed to help my hon. Friend the Member for Sutton Coldfield (Sir J. Mellor), and to explain to him what the hon. Gentleman the Parliamentary Secretary did not explain to the House—how this particular Amendment comes to be phrased as it is? I think it is just a piece of bad drafting and I should like to explain to the House what I think it means. The Amendment says:
In page 19, line 36, at the end insert—'(4) The value of the securities specified in Part III of the said Fourth Schedule.'
That puzzled my hon. Friend because so far there is no Part III of the Fourth Schedule. We were then referred by the


Parliamentary Secretary to a later Amendment which he proposed to make to include a Part III dealing with securities guaranteed by the Treasury. What puzzled me was that there is no security guaranteed by the Treasury other than the one we have been discussing. Had it been "security guaranteed by the Treasury" I could have understood the point. Now I understand it, and I hope the House does too.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 18.—(Suspension of dividend payments, etc.)

Mr. G. R. Strauss: I beg to move, in page 20, line 21, at the end, to insert:
or
(b) of any dividend duly declared before, but not payable till after, the passing of this Act.
The purpose is to remove from the prohibition contained in this Clause dividends which have been declared before the Bill has been passed but which are not payable until afterwards. It is the practice of the main line railways to declare their dividends usually in the third week in July, and these are usually payable in the second part of August. It is necessary to make special provision for the payment of these dividends in the ordinary way otherwise they would come under the prohibition. The sole purpose of this Amendment is to enable these dividends to be paid

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 20.—(Payments by Commission in respect of profits for period preceding date of transfer.)

Amendment made: In page 22, line 2, leave out "for," and insert "in."—[Mr. G. R. Strauss.]

Mr. Assheton: I beg to move, in page 22, line 5, to leave out "forty-six," and to insert "forty."
This is not a drafting Amendment. I should, therefore, like to explain it shortly to the House. The particular Clause which this Amendment seeks to amend refers to payments by the Commission in respect of profits for a period preceding date of transfer. The plan of the Bill as drafted is that the profits of the last two years during which it is intended the railway companies should remain under their present management should be

taken together. The Amendment suggests that since the amounts distributed in interest and dividends during the control period were considerably less than the amounts available for distribution as measured by the formula laid down in the control Bill, the final period should cover the years from 1940 to 1947 instead of just the years 1946 and 1947.
That would leave the companies in a position to pay their stockholders the amount they had under-distributed during the years 1940 to 1945—under-distributed in good faith, assuming that they would resume their businesses when the war came to an end. The Financial Secretary put forward two arguments in the course of the Committee stage which, with great respect, I thought were bad arguments. He said that there was a good deal of abnormal wear and tear on the railways which had to be made good. That is perfectly true, but special provision was made under the control agreement for that very purpose, and I do not think that argument is really an effective one. The other argument was that the existence of these reserves was reflected in the Stock Exchange quotations of the railway securities on which the Schedule is based. That is also a false argument because—I have argued it on a previous occasion and I do not wish to repeat it now—the prices on which they were standing did not reflect the true value but were a reflection of the anticipation of nationalisation. If the Financial Secretary is going to reply to that point, perhaps he would also say what, if any, consideration has been given to the promise which was made by either himself or the Minister—I forget exactly who it was—during the Committee stage with regard to the next Amendment—in page 22, line at end, to insert:
(c) such other amounts as in the view of the auditor may be appropriately included as net revenue for the final period by reference to the normal practice of the body "—
which covers a very germane subject

6.15 p.m.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: The right hon. Gentle-man is, of course, quite correct We discussed this on the Committee stage. I am sorry that he found some of the arguments I and other hon. Friends of mine used were not very convincing, because they are arguments which appeared to us sound and are the reasons why it is impossible for us now, as it was im-


possible for us then, to accept this Amendment. As the right hon. Gentleman said, the provisions of this Clause, which I know hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite think are tightly drawn, are to prevent the dissipation of the assets of these undertakings through excessive dividends or by other payments of one kind or another. It seems to us that we should make provision in the Bill as to what should be done when the final period is entered upon, as indeed it has now been entered upon, and what sums the shareholders and others should be entitled to. We have laid down a final period which covers the two years from 1st January, 1946, to 31st December, 1947. This Amendment would extend the final period of two years to eight years. Obviously, we cannot go back to 1940, because during that period, as the House knows very well, considerable sums, or at any rate, fairly large sums flooded into the coffers of the railway companies, and they put certain sums to reserve. No doubt they were then thinking of the after the-war years and of the fact that there would be, in spite of what the right hon. Gentleman has just said, a good deal of abnormal wear and tear, as indeed there was, and that after the war they would need capital for one purpose or another.
In due course, these railways are to be taken over by the State, and it will be the duty of the State to re-equip them. It seems to us fair that what sums there are there for rehabiltiation should come to the State and the community so that they can be used by the community for the same purpose for which the railway companies originally placed them to reserve. We resist this Amendment all the more strongly because the benefit that would accrue from the handing over of these sums under this Amendment to the railway companies would not accrue to the general body of shareholders. If would only go to certain junior stockholders and not to all alike. The gain would, therefore, be a partial one and not to the shareholders as a whole. The arguments which were used during the Committee stage were quite straightforward, and we thought they had a good deal of point in them. The railway companics have suffered a certain amount of war damage, and no contribution has yet been paid by the railway companies towards the war damage which was sustained. Other sections of the community

during the war had to pay then contri butions.

Mr. Renton: What about the £152 million which was earned by the railway companies and put aside in a trust fund created for the purpose of repairing war damage? Will that accrue to the Commissioners as a windfall?

Mr. Glenvil Hall: If the hon. Gentleman will examine the facts, or will get someone to point them out to him, he will find that the £152 million is not there for war damage purposes.

Mr. Renton: As the Financial Secretary has challenged me, may I refer him to the Committee proceedings, during which the Parliamentary Secretary stated the position quite clearly in agreement with myself? I raised the matter there and made it perfectly clear that this sum was put aside for making up such repairs and damages as could not be carried out during the war. [HON. MEMBERS "Ah."] That must have included war damages.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I think the hon. Gentleman has answered himself. Those sums were put by in order to cover arrears of maintenance which could not then, because of the war, be carried out.

Mr. Renton: And current repairs—whether necessitated by the war or any other cause. I have never understood there was to be any other source from which the railways could obtain their finances in future other than that £152 million which has been set aside.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I do not think I need follow the hon. Gentleman any further along the path he has begun to tread; I do not think I should be in Order in so doing. I was referring to contributions towards war damage which other sections of the community have paid and which the railway companies have not. It is not their fault. In common with the utility undertakings, no scheme has yet been elaborated which covers the railways for war damage and their contribution towards making good such damage. Therefore any scheme which may come into existence should receive a contribution from the railway companies just as other people have made their contribution already. As to wear and tear, the right hon. Gentleman the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton) was rather facetious about our using that argument. can only repeat that in our view


there was considerable and abnormal wear and tear during the war. The railway companies were unable during the war to make good, as they otherwise might have done, some of the wear and tear which accrued.

Mr. Assheton: I was not intending to be at all facetious, I was trying to make a genuine point, namely, that under the control agreement—as the Parliamentary Secretary will know quite well—there were special arrangements made for dealing with that particular problem, and, therefore, this particular money can hardly be expected by the Financial Secretary to have been put aside for that particular purpose.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: I did not say that was the only sum that had been put aside. I was only saying that it would be a contribution well worth while towards the considerable and abnormal wear and tear which had accrued during the war. That being so, as the State will have to make good that damage—it is true there will be some reserves apart from this—there is no reason why the community should not enjoy the use of this money for the purpose for which it was originally put aside by the railway companies and not spent for reasons of which we are all aware. Then, too, during the war a great deal of the equipment, apart from wear and tear, was made good with materials which will have to be replaced as soon as possible when the genuine article comes along. Sheets, which are usually made of canvas, had to be made of cotton; sleepers, which normally are of wood, and good wood at that, have had, because of the shortage of timber, to be made of other materials. Obviously, the railway companies will want to put their permanent way into a good state of repair as soon as possible and have timber sleepers as they did before the war. For these reasons, as well as for the reason—which I think is an excellent one in itself—that if we accepted this Amendment, we should only be giving an extra sum of money to the junior stockholders of the railways generally, I ask the House to reject this Amendment.

Sir W. Darling: I propose to take another line from that taken by my hon. Friends. This Clause in general turns on quite an important point apart from the

Amendment. An officer is to be appointed who will be responsible for the ascertainment and certification of the various sums in paragraphs (a), (b), (c), (d), (e) and (f). What I am concerned with is the importance of the standing of this officer. In order to carry out the purpose of the Clause, obviously, he will have to be a man of the highest standing, and I observe that Clauses 121 and 122 make it clear that this Bill applies not only to England and Wales, but to Northern Ireland and Scotland, and so the officer appointed—

Hon. Members: Order.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I think the hon. Member will find it difficult to relate what he is now saying to the Amendment we have under discussion.

Sir W. Darling: I agree that it will demand a good deal of ingenuity, but not more than my predecessors have shown.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: But possibly more than I shall allow.

Sir W. Darling: It will not be possible, I understand you to say, Sir, for me to make any reference to the character and standing of this officer who will carry out the duties laid on him in paragraph (a).

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: No.

Sir W. Darling: I would have thought, with all respect, Sir, that I might be permitted to say that the officer who is to carry on during the 1946 period, as against the 194o period for which the Amendment asks, should be an officer of probity and distinction and possibly selected by the President of the Institute of Chartered Accountants for Scotland.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The hon. Member now is discussing the Clause; we are discussing a specific Amendment affecting one part of the Clause, and he must confine his remarks to the Amendment, which seeks to delete "forty-six," and to insert "forty." Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre.

Colonel Crosthwaite-Eyre: I thought the Financial Secretary was rather disingenuous in his statement, because this question really resolves itself into one fact, rather than into any suppositions as to what may or may not benefit the community in the long run. Here we have these companies which, for five years, have distri-


buted very much less than that which was available under the agreement. Under this Bill, in the two years which constitute the final period, they will be allowed to pay a higher rate of dividend than that which they have paid. There are certain reserves left, and the question before us now is, What should happen to those reserves? As I understand it, when the Financial Secretary's first argument is stripped down to its bare facts, he simply said, "Here is a sum which we can get under the terms of the agreement. Why should we not have it? Why not retain it?" Surely, that is not a question which this House should consider? The railway companies put this money back in the past in a way in which every hon. Member would consider prudent, and which has time and time again secured the support of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. They are now asking that they should be entitled to a certain amount of this money which would have been available if this Measure had not been brought in. I cannot see what that has to do with the arguments advanced by the Financial Secretary.
He then went on to say that the shareholders as a whole would not benefit, it would be only the junior stockholders. Again, he has missed the point, because who are the people who went without it in the first place? They were the junior stockholders. Obviously, the dividends restricted by the conservative and sound policy on the part of the directors did not cover a full distribution to the junior stockholders. All they are asking is that those junior stockholders who, very rightly, in the troublesome days of the war went without their full dividends in order to build up reserves against unknown contingencies and against the difficulties there would be at the end of the war, should have that money, or part of that money, made available to them to fulfil what I am certain the Financial Secretary will agree is a right and proper desire on the part of the companies. Therefore, to try to pretend that the shareholders will not benefit, because only a certain class will benefit, is merely to overlook the fact that the class which benefits now is the very class which, in the national interest, went without their dividends during the war. This Amendment will not alter in the least the relative reserve for distribution applicable to payments for wear and tear above the normal.

For all these reasons this Amendment should be accepted, and these junior stockholders, who during the war made a real sacrifice to protect and preserve the system, should be entitled to something for what they did in the common interest.

6.30 p.m.

Mr. Poole: I do not wish to deal with the technical argument in regard to this transaction, because I am not sufficiently conversant with railway finance to do so. I urge the Financial Secretary and the Minister to consider whether the Government are really wise in pursuing the rather narrow policy which flows through all their nationalisation schemes. We have had occasion to comment on this in another part of the Bill, in discussing compensation. Certain funds are accumulated by concerns who prudently make reserves over a period of years, and those in charge of them are constantly urged by the Chancellor of the Exchequer and hon. Members opposite, indeed by hon. Members in all parts of the House, not to pay out large sums in dividends, but to retain the money in their concerns to pay for capital re-equipment. What is going to happen to those industries who now have the threat of nationalisation hanging over them? We know that there are industries ndustries which are definitely going to be nationalised, and others who fear they may be drawn into the scheme. But this proposal is encouraging to those who have been imprudent and have spent the money. Supposing an hon. Member opposite was a director of a concern which he felt had a reasonable chance of being nationalised in the next five or 10 years, he would see no object whatever in accumulating reserves, because the policy of the Government is not to include them in the compensation. It will have the exact opposite effect to what the Government want it to have. I urge the Government in all seriousness to reconsider the point. If the Government pursue this policy of making it so much better for the person who has been imprudent, and has paid money out from reserves, there will be a most disastrous distribution of dividends.

Mr. Mitchison: These reserves, like other assets of the railway companies, are reflected in the market price at which the securities are being taken over. The right hon. Gentleman


the Member for the City of London (Mr. Assheton) admitted as much. His only objection was a general objection that that Stock Exchange price, freely negotiated between buyers and sellers, was not a true market value. That was a repetition of what he has said before, that it reflected the fear of nationalisation, or something of that sort. I do not know whether it is in Order to go into that question now, but I would point out that even if it were not a true reflection it does not follow in the least that it did not reflect this general point. It may have been too high, or too low, nevertheless, one would expect it to reflect—and would see no reason why it should not—the existence of these and further reserves. The hon. Member for Oswestry (Mr. Poole) said that in the value of shares no one pays any attention to the existence of these further reserves. Those reserves are obviously reflected in the value of the shares, and if they are to be bought, or taken over by the Government, that is a matter which is taken into consideration in either case.
Right hon. and hon. Members opposite seem to be unduly concerned with the interests of one particular class of persons, the railway stockholders. Surely, they are sent here to represent other people. They are here to represent the travelling public, and the tax- payer. The travelling public and the taxpayer are concerned to see that excessive compensation is not paid. I cannot help feeling that those who frarhed the Amendment knew perfectly well that the sums they are trying to get by this Amendment are additional to the true value of the shares, and, if they were given the railway stockholders, it would represent an unparalleled benefit, unfair to the taxpayer and to the prospective user of transport, so far as he has to pay for it, as he will in the long run. We have had a number of speeches on this, and other short and simple points. It will not lie in the mouths of those who make those speeches from benches opposite to complain unduly of the operation of the Guillotine.

Sir Ralph Glyn: I only want to intervene to say that I think the conduct of the board during the whole period of the war ought to be reflected by the very prudent policy they adopted.

While it is true it is not the business of hon. Members to represent a certain section of the population, those of us—and I declare my interest—who are, or were, directors of the railways, have an obligation to look after the interests of the shareholders, and that is a proper function. I ask the House to remember that when the country was under heavy bombardment, and up to 1945, it was quite impossible to tell the ultimate damage. Therefore, the prudent board set aside even larger sums. All that prudent policy was tucked away, and I do not think it was reflected in the value of the shares.

Mr. Harold Roberts: It seems to me that common justice is involved here. I am not affected by the arguments which have been put forward from the other side of the House The Government decided to nationalise transport. They have chosen to adopt a particular way of doing it; that is to say, not to take over the undertaking, but to take over, in effect, the shares, or rather to take over the undertaking on the basis of shares quoted on a particular day. That seems specious and attractive but, if we look into it further, we see that is not so. The price of the shares is based on the assumption that parcels of shares are changing hands from day to day and does not necessarily reflect the total value of the undertaking if sold out-side. Therefore, we are hack to this position. These funds have come out of the pockets of the ordinary shareholders Hon. and right hon. Members opposite, including the Financial Secretary, think it is shocking that the ordinary shareholder should ask for what has been taken from him or withheld from his pocket. They appear to think themselves entitled to act as judges between thousands of shareholders and to take up the high moral attitude that really they are only acting a little unfairly towards the preference shareholders. The only ground upon which nationalisation can be justified is by paying a fair and proper price. It may be very well and right to nationalise the railways. It cannot be right to take away from the shareholders money which they have earned and not drawn. On that very short and simple ground—I am quite undeterred by the fallacious argument about individual market quotations—I desire to support the Amendment.

Question put, "That the word 'fortysix' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 312; Noes, 134.

Division No. 161.]
AYES.
[6.41 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Lewis, T. (Southampton)


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
Lindgren,. G. S.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M


Alpass, J. H.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Logan, D G.


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Longden, F.


Attewell, H. C.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Lyne, A. W.


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Ewart, R.
McAdam, W.


Austin, H. L.
Fairhurst, F.
McEntee, V. La T


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Farthing, W. J.
McGhee, H. G.


Bacon, Miss A
Field, Captain W. J.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Baird, J.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
McKinlay, A. S.


Balfour, A
Follick, M.
Maclean, N. (Govan)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A J
Foot, M. M.
McLeavy, F.


Barstow, P. G.
Forman, J. C.
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Barton, C.
Foster, W. (Wigan)
Mallalieu, J. P. W.


Battley, J. R.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
Mann, Mrs. J.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)


Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)


Benson, G.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Marshall, F. (Brightside)


Beswick, F.
George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)
Mathers, G.


Bing, G. H. C
Gibbins, J.
Medland, H. M


Binns, J.
Gilzean, A.
Mellish, R. J.


Blackburn, A. R.
Gooch, E. G.
Messer, F.


Blenkinsop, A
Goodrich, H. E.
Mikardo, Ian


Blyton, W. R.
Gordon-Walker, P. C
Mitchison, Major G. R.


Boardman, H.
Greenwood, A. W J. (Heywood)
Monslow, W.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr H. W
Grenfell, D. R.
Montague, F


Bowen, R.
Grey, C. F.
Moody, A. S.


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Grierson, E.
Morgan, Dr. H. B


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Morley, R.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Brooks, T J. (Rothwell)
Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Mort, D. L.


Brown, George (Belper)
Gunter, R. J.
Moyle, A.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Guy, W. H.
Murray, J. D


Bruce, Major D. W T
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Nally, W.


Buchanan, C.
Hall, W. G.
Naylor, T. E.


Burden, T. W.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Neal, H. (Claycross)


Butler, H. W (Hackney, S.)
Hardman, D. R.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Byers, Frank
Hardy, E. A.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F E. (Brentford)


Callaghan, James
Harrison, J.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Carmichael, James
Haworth, J.
Oldfield, W. H


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Paget, R. T.


Chamberlain, R. A
Hewitson, Capt. M
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)


Champion, A. J.
Hobson, C. R.
Palmer, A. M. F.


Chater, D.
Holman, P.
Parker, J.


Chetwynd, G. R

Holmes, H E (Hemsworth)
Parkin, B, T.


Clitherow, Dr. R
House, G
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)


Cobb, F. A
Hoy, J.
Paton, J. (Norwich)


Cocks, F. S.
Hubbard, T.
Pearson, A.


Coldrick, W.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Peart, Capt. T. F.


Collins, V. J.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.


Colman, Miss G. M
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)


Comyns, Dr. L
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Popplewell, E.


Cook, T. F.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Porter, E. (Warrington)


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Irving, W. J
Porter, G. (Leeds)


Corbet, Mrs. F K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G A
Price, M. Philips


Corlett, Dr. J.
Janner, B.
Proctor, W. T.


Corvedale, Viscount




Cove, W. G
Jay, D. P T.
Pryde, D. J.


Crawley, A.
Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Pursey, Cmdr. H.


Crossman, R. H. S.
Jeger, Dr S. W. (St Pancras, S.E.)
Randall, H. E


Dagger, G
John, W.
Ranger, J.


Daines, P.
Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Rankin J.


Davies, Clement (Montgomery)
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Reeves J



Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Reid, T. (Swindon)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Rhodes, H.


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Richards, R.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Keenan, W.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M


Davies, S O (Merthyr)
Key, C. W.
Robens, A.


Deer, G.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E
Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)


Delargy, Captain H J
Kinley, J.
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)


Diamond, J.
Kirkwood, D
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)


Dobbie, W.
Layers, S.
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)


Dodds, N. N.
Lawson, Rt. Hon. J J
Royle, C.


Driberg, T. E. N.
Lee, F (Hulme)
Scollan, T.


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Lee. Miss J. (Cannock)
Scott-Elliot, W


Durbin, E F M
Leslie, J. R.
Shackleton, E. A A



Dye, S.
Levy. B W
Sharp, Granville




Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
West, D. G.


Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Taylor, Dr. S (Barnet)
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Shurmer, P.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N E)


Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W


Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Simmons, C. J.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A B


Skeffington, A. M.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Wilkes, L.


Skeffington-Lodge, T. C
Thurtle, Ernest
Wilkins, W. A.


Skinnard, F. W.
Tiffany, S
Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)


Smith, C. (Colchester)
Timmons, J.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)
Titterington, M. F
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Smith, S. H. (Hull, S W.)
Tolley, L.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Solley, L. J.
Turner-Samuels, M.
Williamson, T.


Sorensen, R. W.
Usborne, Henry
Willis, E.


Soskice, Maj. Sir F
Vernon, Maj. W. F
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Sparks, J. A.
Viant, S. P.
Wise, Major F. J


Stamford, W
Wadsworth, G.
Woodburn, A.


Steele, T.
Walker, G. H.
Wyatt, W.


Stephen, C.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
Yates, V. F


Stewart, Capt Michael (Fulham, E.)
Warbey, W. N.
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)
Watkins, T. E.
Younger, Hon Kenneth


Stubbs, A. E.
Watson, W. M.



Swingler, S.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Sylvester, G. O.
Weitzman, D.
Mr. Collindridge and


Symonds, A. L.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)
 Mr. Hannan.


Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)





NOES.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G.
Gates, Maj. E. E.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Amory, D. Heathcoat
George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G Lloyd (P'ke)
Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C. E.


Assheton, Rt. Hon. R
Glyn, Sir R.
Neven-Spence, Sir B.


Astor, Hon. M.
Gomma-Duncan, Col. A G
Nield, B. (Chester)


Baldwin, A. E.
Grant, Lady
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P


Barlow, Sir J.
Gridley, Sir A.
Orr-Ewing, I. L.



Beamish, Maj. T. V. H
Grimston, R. V.
Peaks, Rt Hon. O


Beechman, N. A.
Harris, H. Wilson
Peto, Brig. C. H. M.


Bennett, Sir P
Harvey, Air-Comdre A V
Pickthorn, K.


Birch, Nigel
Haughton, S. G.
Ponsonby, Col. C. E.


Boothby, R
Head, Brig. A. H.
Poole, O. B. S. (Oswestry)


Bower, N.
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon Sir C
Prescott, Stanley


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O


Bracken, Rt. Hon. Brendan
Hogg, Hon. Q.
Rayner, Brig. R.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col W
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)
Renton, D.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W)
Roberts, H (Handsworth)


Butcher, H. W.
Jennings, R.
Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland


Butler, Rt. Hon. R. A. (S'ffr'n W'ld'n)
Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr Hon. L W
Ropner, Col. L.


Carson, E.
Lambert, Hon. G.
Ross, Sir R.


Channon, H.
Lancaster, Col. C. G
Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J A


Churchill, Rt. Hon. W. S
Langford-Holt, J
Scott, Lord W.


Clarke, Col. R. S.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H
Shephard, S. (Newark)


Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G
Lindsay, M. (Solihull)
Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)


Cole, T. L.
Linstead, H. N
Smith, E. P. (Ashford)


Conant, Maj. R. J E.
Lipson, D. L.
Spearman, A. C. M.


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Low, Brig. A. R. W
Spence, H. R.


Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H. F. C
Lucas, Maj. Sir J.
Stanley, Rt. Hon. O.



Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O. E
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)


Crowder, Capt. J. F E
Lyttelton, Rt. Hon. O
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)



Cuthbert, W. N.
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.
Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd'ton, S.)


Darling, Sir W. Y
Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)
Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)


De la Bère, R.
Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Thorp, Lt.-Col R A F


Digby, S. W.
McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Touche, G. C.


Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Maclay, Hon. J. S.
Vane, W. M. F.


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Walker-Smith. D.


Drayson, G. B.
Macpherson, Mai, N. (Dumfries)
Ward, Hon. G. R.


Duthie, W. S
Maitland, Comdr. J. W.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


Eccles, D. M.
Manningham-Buller, R. E
White, Sir D. (Fareham)


Elliot, Lieut.-Colonel W
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Erroll, F. J.
Marshall, D (Bodmin)
Winterton, Rt. Hon. Earl


Fletcher, W. (Bury)
Maude, J. C.
York, C.


Foster, J. G. (Northwich)
Medlicott, F



Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Mellor, Sir J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M.
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T
Mr. Drewe and


Gage, C.
Morris-Jones. Sir H
 Mr. Studholme.

Major Sir David Maxwell Fyfe: I beg to move, in page 22, line 11, at the end, to insert:
(c) such other amounts as in the view of the auditor may be appropriately included as net revenue for the final period by reference to the normal practice of the body.

The Financial Secretary will remember that he told us on the 15th day of the Committee's proceedings that reconsideration would be given to the question of including in the amount of the final distribution such additional items as seemed


right to the auditor, according to the usual practice. I quite appreciate that there are some technical difficulties about that, but I hope that the right hon. Gentleman may be able to give us some news on the point and to inform the House as to the present position.

Mr. Glenvil Hall: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is quite right. We did discuss this matter on an identical Amendment during the Committee stage, and I did then, on behalf of my right hon. Friend, indicate that he would be willing to look at it again to see if it were possible to meet, partially, at any rate, the points put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman and his friends on that occasion. This Amendment is drawn much too wide for us to accept. Nevertheless, we do feel that there was something in the point, although I regret to say that my right hon. Friend has not so far found a form of words which will cover the distance which he is prepared to go, but he intends to continue his search, and, perhaps, between now and further stages of the Bill, we may be able, in association with those concerned, to find a form of words which will be suitable. At the present moment, the words are drawn much too wide, and would include items which, in our view, should not be included, and which would be unfair to the travelling public and the public generally to include in this Bill.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: In view of the assurance of the right hon. Gentleman, and wishing him good luck in the search for the proper formula, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 21.—(Application of sums received from Commission under last preceding section.)

The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 25, line 10, at the end, to insert:
Provided that a body mentioned in Part I of the Third Schedule to this Act may enter into an agreement with the Commission to pay to the Commission a sum agreed between them in respect of such agreements disclaimed by the Commission as may be specified in the first mentioned agreement, and upon the payment of the sum so agreed the liability, if any, to pay the sums mentioned in paragraph (a) of this Subsection in respect of the disclaimed agreements so specified shall become a liability of the Commission to the exclusion of the body.

This deals with a narrow point, but one of some importance. Hon. Members will remember that, under Clause 15, agreements can be disclaimed, and, if they are, the matter does not rest with the Commission, but with the body that entered into the agreement, and that also applies to payments under the disclaimed agreements, by virtue of the Frustrated Contracts Act, 1943. Hon. Members will see that payments made to the body under the preceding Clause and payments which the body will receive under the disclaimed agreements, have to be applied in accordance with a certain priority of payment. The first priority, which is set out in Subsection (1, a) of the Clause provides for payment of any sums legally due from the body to any other person under the disclaimed agreements. It may turn out, and, quite frequently, will turn out, that it will not be easy to ascertain precisely the amount due under the terms of the disclaimed agreement from the body. It may take some time to work out the precise obligations of the body and to ascertain the precise sum. That being so, the result would be that payments that are later in the order of priority would be delayed, and the object of the Amendment is to prevent that delay occurring. What the Amendment does is that it states that where the body has an obligation under a disclaimed agreement, the following arrangement may be entered into. On payment of an agreed sum by the body to the Commission, the Commission will assume liability to discharge that payment under the disclaimed agreement, and, the body concerned having discharged its obligation under Subsection (1), could proceed and allocate payments in accordance with the successive items of priority. In other words, this is an arrangement designed to obviate delay and make a settlement easier, and to facilitate the position for all parties concerned in the winding up of a body. I ask the House to say that the Amendment is an improvement to the Clause, to assist the convenience of a great many people concerned in one way or another with disclaimed agreements.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 25, line 24, after first "of," insert "and the proviso to."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 25.—(Application of preceding provisions to local authorities.)

Amendment made; In page 31, line 25, leave out "or obligation."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 28.—(The Caledonian and Crinan Canals.)

Amendments made: In page 35, line 20, leave out "obligations."

In line 23, leave out "obligations."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 35.—(Commission's licensing powers as to inland waterways.)

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I beg to move, in page 41, line 11, at the end, to insert:
(5) For the purpose of this Section—

(a) the carriage of goods of a holding company by a subsidiary thereof, on the carriage of goods of such a subsidiary by another such subsidiary or by the holding company; or
(b) the delivery or collection by a person of goods sold or used or which have been, or are to be, subjected to a process or treatment in the course of a trade or business carried on by him,

shall not be deemed to be the carriage of goods for reward.
In this Subsection, the expression "holding company" means a company which is the beneficial owner or not less than ninety per cent. of the issued share capital of another company, and the expression "subsidiary" in relation to a holding company, means a company not less than ninety per cent. of the issued share capital of which is in the beneficial ownership of the holding company.
Where a subsidiary (as hereinbefore defined) is the beneficial owner of any shares of another company, those shares shall be treated for the purposes of the foregoing definitions as if they were in the beneficial ownership of the holding company.
This is an Amendment, I think, of a non-controversial type, which is really concerned with a technical point that arises on carriage by canals. As the right hon. Gentleman is aware, it is a common occurrence in canal waterway traffic for a parent company to have certain subsidiary companies which own the barges. In the Amendment we are tying that up very tightly. We are making the qualification 90 per cent which is the highest qualification, I think, which has ever been put for a parent and subsidiary company, in order to ensure that the two are identified. The last thing we desire to do by this Amendment is to make a loophole for any persons to avoid the responsibilities of the licensing system for the inland

waterways, if they are really carriers for hire or reward. We ask the right hon. Gentleman to consider whether it is not reasonable that if there is a 90 per cent. association, it is really equivalent to a business with departments, one department operating with another. That is the first point of the Amendment.
7.0 p.m.
The second point is even simpler and less contentious. It covers the delivery or collection of goods which have been, or are to be, subjected to a process of treatment in the course of a trade or business carried on by the person involved. We say that, in that case, the collection and delivery of such goods, which are either goods which have been processed or about to be processed, should not be treated in the ordinary way, but that they ought to be treated as the goods of the person who is carrying them, provided he is carrying them only for the purposes set out in the Amendment. I can appreciate that the right hon. Gentleman has to go into a point like this with care, because I see, just as he sees, that there are loopholes, and that the right might be abused. We have tried to make the mesh of the net as small as possible, so that it will take in what we want to include, and will let out only what should be let out. On that basis, I commend the Amendment to the right hon. Gentleman as something to which he might give favourable consideration.

Mr. Barnes: I agree that, except in the general case put forward by the right hon. and learned Gentleman, this would not prove too difficult a problem to meet. But, at the moment, no sufficient evidence has been submitted to me as to the kind of traffic involved, and I cannot say at the moment that I am clear whether I am considering this as a general assumption of something that may happen, or how far, in fact, it is reflected in actual business, or requirements, or services, or needs, on the canals and navigable rivers. Therefore, I am always rather disinclined to accept a proposal of this kind, unless I am satisfied exactly what its reactions are likely to be.
At the moment I regret that I am not able to accept the Amendment, although I am generally sympathetic towards its intention. If, on examination, I find that it does not lead to any reactions that would cause me trouble elsewhere with


regard to the licensing system of canal carriers, I should be prepared to deal with the matter in another place. There is no desire on my part to introduce the licensing system with regard to canal traffic for the type of undertaking to Which the right hon. and learned Gentleman refers. At the moment, I am not quite satisfied whether it is an issue of substance, or whether it is a matter of shadow and general assumption. If the right hon. and learned Gentleman would be satisfied with that assurance, and would let me examine the point in a little more detail, and see what evidence can be brought forward to support his contention, I should be happy to do so. I am not approaching the matter in any desire to frustrate the intention of the right hon and learned Gentleman.

Major Legge-Bourke: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman to bear in mind, when considering the matter, that this Amendment would cover sugar beet factories which have barges on the river, both for the purpose of carrying sugar beet and for other purposes, and also, that there are some rivers which are likely to become more navigable if the treatment which many people wish them to have is given to them. Therefore there may be a great many more undertakings should the rivers be developed

Mr. Barnes: I have indicated that there is no intention to impose a licensing procedure just for the sake of having it. I would welcome any evidence such as that indicated by the hon. and gallant Gentleman.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: In view of the assurance given by the right hon. Gentle- man, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the Amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

CLAUSE 37.—(Schemes as to Railway Clearing House.)

Amendments made: In page 42, line 5, leave out "obligations."

In line 9, leave out "obligations."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Mr. Barnes: I beg to move, in page 42, line 24, at the end, to insert:
(e) for repealing or amending any previous scheme in force under this Section.
This and the following Amendment are intended to tidy up the Clause dealing with

the Railway Clearing House. Clause 37 empowers the British Transport Commission to prepare a scheme to deal with the property, rights, powers, obligations and liabilities of the Railway Clearing House. This Amendment brings into a separate paragraph the power to repeal or to amend previous schemes, and the following Amendment deletes just a few unnecessary words. It does not alter the substance of the Clause, but it results in improved and clearer drafting.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 42, line 28, leave out from "amending," to "any," in line 29.—[Mr. Barnes.]

Mr. Barnes: I beg to move, in page 42, line 41, to leave out from the first "the," to the end of line 42, and to insert "Minister may direct the Commission."
This Amendment makes it clear that the Minister may direct the British Transport Commission to prepare and submit a scheme, but the Minister has not power to indicate the lines or the details of the scheme. Therefore, I think that this, again, is a clearer and more specific arrangement.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 42, line 43, leave out from "Section," to the end of line 44, and insert:
and the Commission shall give effect to any such directions."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 38.—(Certain road transport undertakings to be acquired by Commission.)

Brigadier Prior-Palmer: I beg to move, in page 44, line 7, to leave out "or B licence."
Much that the Minister has said leads one to suppose that he is not unsympathetic to this Amendment. It relates to "B" licences which concern mainly the small man, by which I mean the small man in trade and not in the road haulage business. In no way can it be suggested that he is part of the road haulage organisations which I suggest it is the intention of this Bill to nationalise. They consist of greengrocers, coal merchants, furniture dealers, horticulturists and so on. They carry their own goods in their own vehicles, and on occasion they carry goods belonging to other traders, but only over short distances. I, therefore, suggest that they do not come


within the meaning of this Bill in the same way as do the large road haulage organisations.
I would particularly like to put the case from the point of view of the horticulturist grower. We have horticulturists who are cultivating under glass, who live in close proximity to each other and who, from time to time, send their goods either to London or to nearby towns. The loads which are carried by these men depend very much on the weather and on other conditions. There are times when one horticulturist, finding that he cannot fill his vehicle economically, rings up the next door horticulturist saying that he has some space in his lorry and is able to carry some of his goods. The distance is not great. If the B licensees are to be nationalised, it will prevent the horticulturists from doing that, it will place a heavy burden on them, they will have to take out C licences and will be prohibited on the odd occasion from taking somebody else's produce as well as their own.
The people concerned are very limited in range already. They are subject to licence, they have fought many battles in the courts for their continued existence, and over the past few years they have been greatly whittled down. Those who still remain have proved in the courts their case for continued existence, If anybody doubts what I am saying with regard to the size of the businesses which are conducted by these men, we have only to look at the figures. In this country there are 28,000 B licencees. Of those, as many as 73 per cent. own less than two vehicles, and 96 per cent. of that number own less than five vehicles. Therefore, on that ground and on grounds of equity I suggest they are due for consideration. They are definitely the "small fry," who do not affect this Bill in any way. They are very near relations to the C licence holders, whose case the Minister has met, and I suggest that he could do no harm to his Bill but could do a great deal of good to small industry in rural areas by accepting this Amendment. They are statistically negligible but locally extremely important.
I think there is occasionally a mistaken view on both sides of the House that A and B licences relate to long and short distance drivers. Nothing could be further from the case. I would also point out that, if this Amendment were accepted,

the Minister would still have the power of licensing, and in that way the Minister could regulate and control them in any reasonable way that was necessary. B licences constitute no menace to this great scheme of the Minister's and are worthy of fair and sympathetic treatment.

7.15 p.m.

Mr. Basil Nield: I beg to second the Amendment.
I think the House cannot fail to have been impressed by the cogent argument of my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer), and I hope the Minister will find it possible to accept the Amendment. I am quite certain that the Minister will not be unwilling to listen to the views of those who were not Members of the Standing Committee and, perhaps, of those who have some experience, as I have, of the working of the licensing arrangements under the Road and Rail Traffic Act, 1933. The Clause which we are considering is the one under which various undertakings are to be acquired by the Commission. Those undertakings consist Wholly or partly of haulage operations undertaken by those who hold A and B licences. As my hon. and gallant Friend said, there is a wide difference between the holders of A licences and of B licences, and it is a difference which is sometimes not fully understood. I would like to suggest in a few words what those various types of licence involve. A licence holders can carry any goods anywhere. A B licence is not a short-distance licence at all. It permits a man to carry his own goods on his own vehicles, and he may carry goods for others for hire or reward, subject to conditions imposed by the licensing authority. I suppose those conditions relate to the type of goods carried, or the persons for whom they are carried, or the distances along which they are carried. Therefore, the House will appreciate that in nearly all the cases of B licence holders, they are really persons running businesses quite apart from haulage, with haulage as an ancillary undertaking.
To give a short example of which I know, there might be a timber merchant who has a storage place. He is allowed under a B licence to carry his own timber. Of course, he could do that under a C licence, but he is also able, subject to the conditions of the licensing authority,


to carry for his storage customers. In the case I have in mind, which is in Liverpool, the conditions are that the man may journey from the docks within quite a short radius. I feel strongly with my hon. and gallant Friend that this is not the sort of business which was contemplated when the Government determined upon this course. Really half or more of the work done by the "B" licence holders is the equivalent of the work done by "C" licence holders, carrying their own goods in their own vehicles. We know now that "C" licence holders are to be excluded, and, therefore, the Government accept a large part of what we are saying. We now ask them to go further, and to say that these haulage undertakings with which we are dealing should not be brought within this scheme. It is not equitable, right, nor in the interests of the scheme itself that they should be included.

Major Cecil Poole: I hope, and feel sure, that the Minister will reject this Amendment. It brings before the House evidence of the insatiable appetite of hon. and right hon. Members opposite. Having tasted blood in the "C" licence concession they proceed to the next stage, and ask that "B" licences should be similarly treated. Give them this and then, of course, "A" licences will follow, and the whole of the nationalised co-ordinated transport will have gone by the board. I believe the Minister has already given away too much in the "C" licence concession. I say that because I want to be frank about this. If this Amendment was accepted by the Minister, I believe no quarter would be given. The case which has been put up by hon. Members opposite has no substance. What is the position? If these people, as we rightly understand, are those holders of licences whose primary purpose in holding a licence is to carry their own goods, they are now completely and adequately safeguarded, inasmuch as they now have unrestricted facilities for operating their own vehicles wherever they may wish under a "C" licence. More than that; they are also able to continue to operate their "B" licences up to a distance of 25 miles. Therefore, it is merely a question of carrying their own goods where they wish.
The hon. and learned Member for the City of Chester (Mr. Nield) instanced the case of a man in Liverpool who has a

warehouse, and who wants to bring from the docks to his warehouse some of someone else's timber. I hardly imagine that that warehouse will be located more than 25 miles from the docks. If that is what the hon. and learned Member seeks to accomplish by this Amendment, the power is already here, the safeguard is already in the Bill, and the man who wants to operate and to carry his own goods, and to do an occasional good turn for his neighbour, is quite able to do it up to 25 miles. As a matter of fact, by licence from the Minister he could even exceed the 25 miles distance. I think every safeguard necessary for the "B" licence holder is already in the Bill, and I hope the Minister will resist this Amendment.

Mr. Renton: The hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Poole) says that the Opposition's case on this Amendment has no substance. I would remind him that it is, I believe, generally accepted by Socialists that when a case for nationalisation has to be made—out the burden of proving that nationalisation is necessary lies upon those who wish to nationalise. We challenge the Minister to make out his case for nationalising these traders whose vehicles he intends to take over. First of all, I remind the Minister that during Committee it transpired that it was intended to nationalise only 2,000 vehicles. Each of those 2,000 vehicles has a dual purpose. They are hybrid vehicles. Like the Liberal-National Party, they combine the virtues of both with the vices of neither. They are primarily held, not by transport operators but by men who are traders. In so far as they try to operate for hire or reward they are subject to the most rigorous restrictions by the licensing authorities, both as to the class of goods to be carried and the distances they may carry them. Bearing in mind the small number of vehicles, the fact that each vehicle is used only partly for hire or reward, and that in so far as it is used for hire or reward it is subject to restrictions, I suggest to the Minister that the Commission will not suffer very greatly if these vehicles are not taken over. But the traders themselves—and I suggest, the public also—will suffer greatly.
How will the traders suffer? In the first place, a very economical way of using a vehicle will disappear, because at the


moment—and this is to the benefit of the public as well as the trader—many an empty back load on what otherwise might be a "C" licence becomes a good pay load on a "B" licence. Is that facility one which is to be wilfully swept away? The traders must have their vehicles there, and, as has been pointed out by hon. Members, they will have to try to replace these "B" licence vehicles with "C" licence vehicles, when the Minister has taken over what he considers to be the "B" licence element of their businesses. We think there is no great advantage to the Commission in taking over those portions of people's businesses which are engaged in hire or reward on "B" licences. Also, we have to remember that the licensing authorities will continue to restrict the vehicle up to 25 miles when carrying for hire or reward, and over that distance it will be necessary to obtain a permit from the Commission. Therefore, the Commission have their protection in any case.
The anxiety arises from this sort of circumstance. The Minister is familiar with this example, which was raised in Committee by the hon. Member for North Dorset (Mr. Byers). Suppose a man has "B" licence vehicles only, and suppose for 55 per cent. of their time they are carrying for hire or reward, and for 45 per cent. of their time are carrying their own goods in connection with their own business. Under the Clause at present, that man's vehicle or vehicles—he may have three, four or five, but not very often can be taken away from him. What is to happen to the rest of his business? There is another very useful example which has been given before. Suppose a man who has seven vehicles and a garage, and suppose by applying the somewhat difficult formula which arises on the joint interpretation of Clauses 44 and 48 the Commission decide to take over four of the seven vehicles. What happens to the garage which is to be used in connection with the transport side of the business? That garage may be attached to other premises, such as a baker's or a greengrocer's, and very great hardship and difficulty may be caused by the interpretation of this Clause
Let me attempt to leap before I come to the stile, and anticipate an argument which I have no doubt the Minister will raise, namely, that like everything else

in this Clause the power which is given, for good or evil, is certain to be used for good. Of course, that is not a proposition which one can accept very easily when making laws for people. It is not fair to give Ministers powers which they can use for evil, unless there are overwhelming circumstances which prove conclusively that they can, and must, only be used for good. However, I suggest that on this occasion such circumstances are not present in such a manner as to convince us that the various injustices which can so easily arise under this Clause will be avoided. We are not dealing, on this Amendment, with the big transport concerns, The big hauliers. We are dealing with the small traders of the country-28,000 small traders, 73 per cent. of them having only one vehicle, and 23 per cent. only two, three or four vehicles, and only four per cent. possessing five or more vehicles. These small traders are not represented in the big political parties, by big battalions; they have not large sections of the Press fighting their case every day. I suggest that it is up to us, Private Members of Parliament on both sides of the House, to be particularly regardful of their interests, and it is because their interests do seem to me most genuinely to be threatened by the few- words of the Bill which we are seeking to delete, that I commend this Amendment to the House.

7.30 p.m.

Brigadier Mackeson: The hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major C. Poole) is quite right in accusing some of us on these benches of having an insatiable appetite I, personally, have as far as this Bill is concerned. Our desire is to try to retain as much liberty for the people of this country as possible. I have not yet been convinced, in connection with the "B" licence, that we are going to get greater efficiency by insisting in the inclusion of the "B" licence holders. I think the point made by my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for Worthing (Brigadier Prior-Palmer) in connection with greenhouse produce could be taken a little further, as I doubt very much whether. the Minister realises the problem that is going to arise in the Southern counties. It will probably be a very acute problem. I do not want to deal with;1 in detail now; but it is one particularly pertinent to the "B" licence, because it will mean that the B "licence holder


who wants to be able to carry his neighbours' goods up to London and around, will be handicapped. This will hit the fruit-growers very severely.
There are two other points which the Minister might care to consider. I doubt if anybody realises just how difficult it will be to impose this legislation, in connection with the "B" licence. It will be necessary, in order to bring a charge against a "B" licence holder, to search his vehicle, presumably, to see whether the goods inside are his own or if they belong to somebody else. I think the police have quite enough on their hands. without our creating any situation requiring a lot of inquiries and snoopers. By excluding the "B" licence we may save the nation a considerable wastage of manpower. The final point I wish to make is that, even if the Clause goes through as drafted, the Commission may find themselves loaded with a responsibility they would very much rather not have. In the isolated districts where the grocer or the baker goes over a distance of 25 miles, we do not want to impose on the Commission the duty of taking over that vehicle, we do not want to make the Commission responsible for carrying traffic in the isolated districts at a loss. In the North there are vehicles which run in the course of ordinary trade long distances, and they should be allowed to exceed the distance of 25 miles, if necessary, to carry goods for the people at the top of the glens or straths.

Major Legge-Bourke: It seems to me that the Minister, if he refuses this Amendment, is ignoring the fact that in the agricultural or horticultural districts Class B licence holders do something in a way which is highly desirable. Although this is, perhaps, more the business of the Minister of Agriculture than the Minister of Transport, the fact remains that the Bill as drafted is against the spirit of cooperation in the horticultural districts, where they work in co-operation. In rejecting this Amendment the Minister will destroy that spirit. I think that if he will discuss it with the Minister of Agriculture, he will find that the spirit is one of the things the Minister of Agriculture most desires in horticultural districts.
I was interested to hear what the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major C. Poole) had to say. He resented the fact that we on this side are trying to

encroach on this Bill, and said that every time we gained some improvement in it, we wanted another. It seems to me that that is the most disastrous argument that could possibly be put forward from the hon. and gallant Member's point of view, because, surely, if ever there was a case of encroachment, it is this Bill, which is taking away from many people businesses which they have built up from very small beginmngs indeed, and have built up entirely through their own energy. It seems to me that that was a highly presumptuous argument to introduce into this Debate.

Major C. Poole: Is the hon. and gallant Gentleman in a position to tell the House just how many of these "B" licence holders—what percentage of them—have operated over 25 miles distance, or do operate over 25 miles today, to see how much we are taking away from them?

Mr. Renton: The Minister stated in Committee that it was about 2,000. The hon. and gallant Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke) was not a Member of the Standing Committee.

Major C. Poole: Nor was I.

Mr. Renton: But I was, and I thought I might assist in answering the question of the hon. and gallant Member.

Major Legge-Bourke: I am grateful to the hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) for that information. I was thinking particularly of a place which the Minister visited last year in my constituency, namely, Wisbech, which happens to be one of the most active horticultural districts of this country. The 25 mile limit is quite useless to horticulturists there, because their fruit has to go to London. By co-operating with their fellow horticulturists, those people who have "B" licences can help not only in carrying the fruit to Covent Garden, but they can also help in bringing back empty containers with them to Wisbech. This Bill seems to me to be bringing us back to all the troubles we experienced during the war under the Ministry of War Transport. If the right hon. Gentleman does not know what those troubles were I suggest that he goes to any horticultural district to find out for himself. The criticism during the war always was, that when the Ministry of War Transport was dealing with a matter, the lorries arrived too late, they did not know where to go,



it was difficult to find enough people to guide them to the correct place. It is most essential to have these matters dealt with locally by class "B" and class "C" licence holders, and not by any transport Ministerially directed from London.

Sir A. Salter: I was brought into contact with the particular problem of the small, intermediate class as far back as 1932. The question that faces the Government now is, on which side of the line which they are drawing between A, on the one hand, and C, on the other, this small class falls. The hon. Member for Huntingdon (Mr. Renton) drew a certain analogy between this class and the Liberal National Party. I think he might have carried his analogy a little further, not confining himself only to its exceptional virtues. It is also similar in being an extremely small proportion of the total. Moreover I should also say it is in its general character more appropriate to the private enterprise side than it is to the Socialist side.
I would like to suggest what would be the consequences of accepting this Amendment. First, it could not possibly do any real harm to the Minister's general scheme, if one takes into account the character and number of the vehicles concerned, and also the fact that they can be, and are, regulated by a flexible system of licences. Incidentally, I think the method of using a conditional licence system is one that might have been given a much bigger effect in the general transport scheme. That is by the way. The Minister's general scheme would certainly not be injured if he put these "B" licences on the other side of the line, retaining as he would the power to control them by licence.
Secondly, the Transport Commission might be just a little inconvenienced occasionally for this reason. They have, under the concession on "C" licences, now to face, what they had not to face under the Bill as it was originally drafted, some measure of competition, which forms some kind of test of the efficiency of the general public transport system. But the competition which they have to face at present is, of course, subject to the very serious reservation that, whereas the public system can always bring back return loads, the "C" carrier must be

so much more efficient than the public transport system that he finds it preferable to carry his own goods even though he is not allowed to bring back return loads. To that extent, the Transport Commission would—and I think it would be very much better for it—have to face here and there a little more effective competition. I think that would be an extremely good thing. Certainly, it could not do any harm to the efficiency or the general interests of the Transport Commission.
Thirdly, the effect of accepting the Amendment would be this; there are, beyond any kind of question, a number of transport jobs in which there is a real economy if a man, when carrying his own goods one way, can save his vehicle from being completely wasted on the return journey. The effect of leaving the Bill as it is, with the rejection of this Amendment, would not be to transfer that economy in all cases to the public transport system. In many cases, undoubtedly it would induce the trader to forego the economy in order that he might have his freedom as a "C" licence holder. In that case it is clear that not only the private trader, but the general national economy will have lost, not a very big economy, but at any rate some economy, without there being any real advantage on the other side. The Amendment affects only a very small number of vehicles, and the proposal is not such as could possibly interfere with the general system of the Bill.

7.45 p.m.

Mr. H. Macmillan: Although I was not very successful in my two previous interventions, I would like to ask the Minister, before he finally commits himself on this matter, to see whether he cannot meet my hon. Friends on this small but important point. I sympathise with the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield (Major Poole) to the extent that always when a Government has made certain concessions, it very properly resents those concessions being used for the purpose of gaining still further concessions. I quite understood what the hon. and gallant Member for Lichfield had in mind, and I did not put upon it quite the same interpretation as my hon. and gallant Friend the Member for the Isle of Ely (Major Legge-Bourke). As I see the position, the Government having decided in principle to set up the monopoly, the monopoly


must be protected. Whether it is right or wrong, it is a monopoly, and the Minister must naturally protect it against competition which might be injurious to it; but accepting that, and having regard to the principle, wherever, without injury to the monopoly, public convenience can be assisted, or individual freedom maintained, I think there is a case, which even the monopoly should accept, to see whether it cannot meet a small but important feature in the system which might be alleviated by the monopoly being not so grasping as to refuse the smallest concession.
Looked at from that point of view, what does the Amendment mean? The monopoly cannot be seriously injured by the degree of competition which would be involved in making this concession. The monopoly would have the protection of the 1939 Act—the licensing system itself. It would have the further protection that it is a question of only about 28,000 operators, most of whom own one, two or three vehicles. Of those, out of the 90,000 or whatever the figure may be, only 2,000 come into the category that would be either clamped down or released for this work, whichever way the decision of the House may go. Obviously, it is not an important decision compared with the vast junction of the monopoly over the whole field of transport. The monopoly is tremendously protected by all the other rights which it has.
Where, then, does private convenience come in? We may assume that the monopoly could not be seriously injured by the 2,000 vehicles. I should hesitate to think that the whole scheme of nationalised transport would be brought down if the operators of 2,000 vehicles were allowed occasionally to pick up a parcel for a friend and take it, for a small charge, to London, with their own goods, and then to bring back something from London to distribute among their immediate neighbours, friends or co-operators in the same class of business. Therefore, if the injury to the monopoly would be minute, surely, apart from preconceived notions as to the value and importance of the monopoly, we ought to see whether we cannot meet public convenience and the established rights of free operators who have been working under this system.
Today, one of the great troubles of this country is the sense of frustration from which everybody suffers. It is so hard

to get anything done. It is not a question of the supply of services and goods being so much ahead of demand that there is immense competition among those who provide the services and goods. The trouble is that the demand is so much ahead of what the services and goods can supply that everybody, in almost every walk of life and in all forms of business, is suffering from the feeling that it takes so long to get the simplest thing done. Such is the pressure on public services and transport that, certainly at this time—whatever may be the condition in 10 years' time, when perhaps the whole balance between supply and demand will change, as it must change somewhat after the great pressure of war—public convenience can best be met by always giving the benefit of the doubt to anything which can get things going and give somebody a little bit of help in doing his business.
If people like market gardeners can be allowed to carry the products of another and possibly bring something back that helps them all, if it is only a question of 2,000 vehicles in all and if it makes a little addition to the general convenience of life, I should have thought that at this time at any rate, having regard to all the other controls involved in the system, the Minister could perhaps tell us that he would look at it again. I would not ask him to pledge himself now to do more than consider it again; we should be very happy if he would say that there is still time to look into it and see whether the facts are correct and the arguments are sound, and that the injury, if it is an injury, would be small. If he could say that he would look at this point again, we should prefer not to press the matter. We would rely upon his good faith and his undertaking to look into this point—small as we all admit it is in proportion to the vast character of this immense Bill, but, nevertheless, important to the people concerned, to those who operate these vehicles and to those whom they serve. Perhaps occasionally in these proceedings I have introduced an element of vehemence and violence, and if the Minister could agree to look at it again, he would be adding, as he is so well fitted to do, an element of grace and comfort which would leave us upon a happier note.

Mr. Barnes: I am afraid that when I have stated my case on this Amendment, the right hon. Gentleman will realise that


I should be very unwise to accept it. It is quite true that it has been emphasised in our discussions that approximately 2,000 B licence holders are affected by this Clause. No one has mentioned the other aspect of the figure, namely, that the total number of B licence holders approximates to 50,000.

Mr. Renton: May I correct the right hon. Gentleman? The figures given to him before, which were not challenged, were these; in 1938 there were 32,120 licence holders owning 56,000 vehicles; in 1946 the number had fallen to 28,000 licences holders owning 50,000 vehicles.

Mr. Barnes: I thank the hon. Member for the correction, I was quoting vehicles, and my hon. Friend has just brought it to my notice that there is a difference between the number of operators and the number of vehicles. That being the case, I think we get it in its proper proportions; it is not a question of numbers that is involved here. There is no question of picking out so many B licence holders for the purpose of bringing them into the Bill. What hon. and right hon. Gentleman are really advocating is rather a dangerous principle, if I may put it that way; it is that in the Bill we should discriminate between one trader and another in the test applied. If hon. Members would refer to Clause 38, I think the position would become perfectly plain. We are dealing here with the operator who takes out a licence for the purpose of carrying the goods of another person for hire or reward. The goods that he carries for himself in his vehicle have nothing to do with the issue we are discussing, because the goods he carries for himself are left outside the calculation eventually applied. The Clause reads:
Where the Commission are of opinion with respect to an undertaking the activities of which consist wholly or partly of the operation of any vehicles authorised to be used under any A licence or B licence—…
(b) that the activities of the undertaking in that year, so far as they consisted in the carriage of goods in goods vehicles consisted to a predominant extent in ordinary long distance carriage for hire or reward.
Again, I want to emphasise that in the case of the B licence operator the goods that he carries for his own business are excluded from this calculation. Then, of course, the Bill applies a test both to the

A licence vehicle and to the B licence vehicles to ascertain whether the majority of the traffic, judged either by weight or value, is carried over a certain distance. If that traffic is shown by the test to be over that distance, then the undertaking is compulsorily acquired. What hon. and right hon. Gentlemen are in fact submitting to me for consideration is that this Bill should apply a different test to two similar persons engaged in the same task 'of offering their vehicles for hire or reward to some person or persons. The hon. and learned Member for Chester (Mr. Nield) stated the position of the B licence operator very clearly, but I do not think that he completed the explanation of his case. I feel fairly certain that if he would follow out the illustration he gave in detail and apply the test under the Bill, the case he quoted would not fall within the definition of this Clause, and would not represent an undertaking which would be compulsorily acquired. That is the reason why the great majority of 13 licence vehicles and operators fall outside this test.
In the first place, a B licence operator can carry his own goods. Then, in the majority of cases, a condition is attached by the licencing authority, putting a limit on the distance or the class of traffic or something of that character. It is because the type of traffic that he carries for hire and reward is as a rule of a short distance character that the majority of them will not fall within the test. On the other hand the A licence operator quite clearly and definitely goes out for all kinds of traffic, and does not bother about his own because it is not sufficient for his purpose. He is aiming at something much larger, and that is the reason why the greater number of A vehicles and operators will come within the provisions of the Bill. In the case of the B licence operator mentioned by the hon. and learned Member for Chester, the only addition to carrying his own timber would be represented by the traffic to and from the docks to his customers, and it is most improbable in that case that the majority of his journeys would exceed the 40-mile radius and bring him within the provision. If as a matter of fact the majority of his journeys for hire or reward were over the long distance, why should not he be brought in as well as the A licence operator? Why should he be excluded when he is engaged in the same type of


direct service as the A licence operator who would be his competitor? The senior Burgess for Oxford University (Sir A. Salter) said that this would do no real harm to the proposals of the Bill. I venture to suggest that it should not be considered on the basis of whether the volume or number of vehicles would do harm to the proposals of the Bill, but on the basis that the same kind of test must be applied to any' operator if he is plying for hire or reward.
8.0 p.m.
My final point is with regard to the remarks of the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan), who continually emphasised that the new organisation would be a monopoly and rather sympathised with the desire to protect the individual against monopolies—which, of course, I quite appreciate. I would prefer to say it in another way. Here we have a number of transport services which are vital to the prosperity and efficiency of the State and which we cannot leave any longer in the hands of private enterprise to carry on with deficiency, and in some respects with inefficiency, and in the inadequate way in which they have been carried on in the past.

Mr. Maclay: I should like the opportunity to refer to one of the points that the Minister has made and which I think ought to be carried further. Why should not the majority of those hauliers who work over long distances with "B" licences be excluded from the enterprises which will be taken over? Why should such a "B" licence holder use his "B" licence? Surely, he will want to carry his own goods safely to their destination in the most efficient way. He works under a "B" licence because his operations are economic only if he can charter the vehicle for the return journey.
If he transferred to a "C" licence, he would have to use his vehicle uneconomically, which would be a bad waste of transport. The only way for him to get safe delivery of his goods would be for him to have his own driver on the job, a specialised man, and he would have to transfer to the "C" licence in order to get that advantage. Otherwise, he would have to run his lorry back every time he has delivered his own goods, and that could not be to the advantage of this country.

Major C. Poole: Would the hon. Gentleman tell the House what happens about the back loading of the 170,000 "C" licensed vehicles at the present time?

Mr. Maclay: I do not know the details of that matter. Presumably the "C" licence holder finds that he has enough of his own goods to make an efficient operation. He has goods going out to be delivered to purchasers and he is bringing in the raw materials. I do not think the "C" operator is in the habit of carrying goods for fun. He works as economically as he possibly can. Otherwise, he would run on a "B" licence.
The suggestion is made that the "B" licence holder should use the Transport Commission's long-distance haulage wagon which is available. Could the right hon. Gentleman say whether it is likely that the Commission will be able to allocate a special vehicle and driver to work steadily on the business of one firm? That might help the operator to get his goods delivered safely. There are firms in my constituency who want to have the same man steadily working on the job, because such men get to know the job backwards and how to handle the goods properly. I am rather doubtful whether it will be found possible for the Commission to allocate a special driver steadily to one firm's needs.
In a sense, the Minister has put forward a very ugly proposition from the point of view both of the individual operator and of the country. A certain number of people will either have to have their goods handled in such a way as will damage the goods—or will damage them in the opinion of those people—or they will be forced to take "C" licences and to use their vehicles thoroughly uneconomically.

Mr. Gallacher: I am sorry that the right hon. Member for Bromley (Mr. H. Macmillan) has gone out. As the Minister said, the right hon. Gentleman deliberately insisted throughout his speech that this organisation was to be a monopoly. If it were to be a monopoly, there would be some reason to be concerned about the small man, but this is not a monopoly. The right hon. Member for Bromley is either crassly ignorant or deliberately wicked, when he says that it is a monopoly. A monopoly is a great concentration of capital in the hands of a group of people who have


only one concern, and that is to get profits. [An HON. MEMBER: "What about the Post Office?"] Now let us see how far we can get.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Major Milner): I am afraid the hon. Member cannot get very far along those lines. The question that the House is discussing is whether to leave out the "B" licences or otherwise.

Mr. Gallacher: Yes, but the right hon. Member for Bromley based his appeal on behalf of the "B" licensees on the ground that this was to be a monopoly. If that were true, there would be some reason for concern about the "B" licensees, but it is not a monopoly. That is the important thing about it.

Sir A. Salter: rose—

Mr. Gallacher: Will the right hon. Member wait a moment. The relationship of the "B" licence holders to this institution is something entirely different from what the position of a "B" licence holder would be to a monoply. A monopoly crushes its competitors and pulls down their businesses. [An HON. MEMBER: "The Co-op."] It restricts production and productive activities in order to keep up prices and profits.

Sir A. Salter: Does the hon. Member assert that there is and can be no such thing as a public monopoly? If that is his assertion, can he quote from any authority or any dictionary or indeed from any Member of this House?

Mr. Gallacher: I could quote, if Mr. Deputy-Speaker would allow me to do so, from the greatest authority upon economics, and particularly upon capitalist economics, and that is Karl

Marx. The proposed institution will be the ownership of a great industry by the people. It will be run in the interests of the people. Is there any possibility—

Mr. Renton: On a point of Order. Is it in Order for the hon. Member, upon a simple Amendment dealing with the exclusion of "B" licences from the Bill, to expound his whole political philosophy?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Perhaps the hon. Member who has raised the point of Order would be kind enough to leave that matter to me. The hon. Member who is addressing the House is certainly going beyond the terms of the Amendment. I hope he will, in that sense, keep his remarks within limits.

Mr. Gallacher: This institution will not restrict activities but will increase them. It will not only compensate "B" licence holders but, in nearly every case, as a consequence of increased activity, will provide the "B" licence holder with employment of a character that will enable him to carry on and will probably increase the security of income that he had as a "B" licence holder. There is a world of difference. There is no comparison whatever between a monopoly which restricts activities and a national institution like this which increases activities in every direction and integrates those activities. This institution will provide greater opportunities for the B licence holders than they have ever had before.

Question put, "That the words 'or B licence' stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 308; Noes, 133.

Division No. 162.]
AYES.
[8.11 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Bing, G. H. C.
Chamberlain, R. A.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Binns, J.
Champion, A. J.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Blenkinsop, A.
Chater, D.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Blyton, W. R.
Chetwynd, G. R.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Boardman, H.
Clitherow, Dr. R.


Alpass, J. H.
Bottomley, A. G.
Cobb, F. A.


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Cocks, F. S.


Attewell, H. C.
Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Coldrick, W.


Austin, H. L.
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pt, Exch'ge)
Collindridge, F.


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Brook, D. (Halifax)
Collins, V. J.


Bacon, Miss A
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Dolman, Miss G. M.


Baird, J.
Brown, George (Belper)
Comyns, Dr. L.


Balfour, A.
Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Buchanan, G.
Corlett, Dr. J.


Barstow, P. G.
Burden, T. W.

Corvedale, Viscount


Barton, C.
Burke, W. A.
Cove, W. G.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Crawley, A.


Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J
Callaghan, James
Crossman, R. H. S.


Benson, G.
Carmichael, James
Daggar, C.


Beswick, F.
Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Daines, P.




Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Kinley, J.
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Kirkwood, D.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Lavers, S.
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.
Royle, C.


Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Lee, F. (Hulme)
Scollan, T.


Deer, G.
Lee Miss J. (Cannock)
Scott-Elliot, W.


Delargy, Captain H. J.
Leonard, W.
Shackleton, E. A A.


Diamond, J.
Leslie, J. R.
Sharp, Granville


Dobbie, W.
Levy, B. W.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


Dodds, N. N.
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)


Driberg, T. E. N.
Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Shurmer, P.


Durbin, E. F. M.
Lindgren, G. S.
Silverman, J. (Erdington)


Dye, S.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Logan, D. G.
Simmons, C. J.


Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)
Longden, F.
Skinnard, F. W.


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Lyne, A. W.
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
McAdam, W.
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)


Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
McEntee, V. La T.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
McGhee, H. G.
Solley, L. J.


Evans, John (Ogmore)
McKinlay, A. S.
Sorensen, R. W.


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Maclean, N. (Govan)
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.


Ewart, R.
McLeavy, F.
Stamford, W.


Fairhurst, F.
Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Steele, T.


Farthing, W. J.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Stephen, C.


Field, Captain W. J.
Mann, Mrs. J.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Follick, M.
Marquand, H. A.
Stubbs, A. E.


Foot, M. M.
Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Swingler, S.


Forman, J. C.
Mathers, G.
Sylvester, G. O.


Foster, W. (Wigan)
Mayhew, C. P.
Symonds, A. L.


Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
Medland, H. M.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Mellish, R. J.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)



Gallacher, W.
Messer, F.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Mikardo, Ian
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Gibbins, J.
Mitchison, Major G. R.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Gilzean, A.
Monslow, W.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Gooch, E. G
Montague, F.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Goodrich, H. E.
Moody, A. S.
Thurtle, Ernest


Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Tiffany, S.


Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Morley, R.
Timmons, J.


Grenfell, D. R.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Titterington, M. F.


Grey, C. F.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W)
Tolley, L.


Grierson, E.
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)
Turner-Samuels, M.


Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Mort, D. L.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Moyle, A.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Murray, J. D.
Viant, S. P.


Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Nally, W.
Walker, C. H.


Gunter, R. J.
Naylor, T. E.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Guy, W. H.
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Warbey, W. N.


Hale, Leslie
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Watkins, T. E.


Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Watson, W. M.


Hardman, D. R.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Hardy, E. A.
O'Brien, T.
Weitzman, D.


Harrison, J.
Oldfield, W. H.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Oliver, G. H.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Haworth, J.
Paget, R. T.
West, D. G.


Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Hewitson, Capt. M.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Holman, P.
Palmer, A. M. F.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Parker, J.
Wigg, Cot. G. E.


House, G.
Parkin, B. T.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.


Hubbard, T.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Wilkes, L.


Hudson, J. H. (Eating, W.)
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Wilkins, W. A.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Pearson, A.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Peart, Capt. T. F.
Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Popplewell, E.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Irving, W. J.
Porter, E. (Warrington).
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Janner, B.
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Williamson, T.


Jay, D. P. T.
Proctor, W. T.
Willis, E.


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Pryde, D. J.
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Wise, Major F. J


John, W.
Randall, H. E.
Woodburn, A.


Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Ranger, J.
Wyatt, W.


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Rankin, J.
Yates, V. F.


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Reeves, J.
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Rhodes, H.




Keenan, W.
Richards, R.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Key, C W.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Mr. Joseph Henderson


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E
Robens, A.
 Mr. Hannan.







NOES.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G
Grant, Lady
Peake, Rt. Hon. O


Aitken, Hon. Max
Grimston, R. V
Peto, Brig C H M.


Amory, D. Heathcoat
Gruffydd, Prof W J
Pickthorn, K.


Astor, Hon. M.
Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbridge)
Ponsonby, Col. C. E


Baldwin, A. E.
Harris, H Wilson
Poole, O. B S. (Oswestry)


Barlow, Sir J.
Haughton, S. G.
Prescott, Stanley


Beamish, Maj. T. V H
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt Hon S[...] C
Price-White, Lt.-Col. D


Beechman, N. A.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O


Bennett, Sir P
Hogg, Hon. Q
Rayner, Brig. R.


Birch, Nigel
Holmes, Sir J Stanley (Harwich)
Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)


Bowen, R.
Howard, Hon. A
Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Hulbert, Wing-Comdr. N J.
Renton, D.


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T
Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W)
Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)


Bullock, Capt. M
Jeffreys, General Sir G
Roberts, H. (Handsworth)


Butcher, H. W
Jennings, R.
Roberts, Maj. P. G (Ecclesall)


Byers, Frank
Kendall, W. D.
Ropner, Col. L.


Carson, E.
Lambe[...]t, Hon. G
Ross, Sir R.


Challen, C.
Lancaster, Col. C. G
Salter, Rt. Hon. Sir J A


Channon, H.
Langford-Holt, J.
Scott, Lord W.


Clarke, Col. R. S.
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A H
Shephard, S. (Newark)


Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col G
Lindsay, M. (Solihull)
Shepherd, W S. (Bucklow)


Cole, T. L.
Linstead, H. N
Smith, E. P. (Ashford)


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Lipson, D. L
Spence, H. R


Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)
Strauss, H. G (English Universities)


Crowder, Capt. J. F E
Low, Brig. A. R. W.
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J (Moray)


Cuthbert, W. N.
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Studholme, H. G


Darling, Sir W. Y.
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C
Taylor, C S. (Eastbourne)


Davies, Clement (Montgomery)
Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)
Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A (P'dd'ton, S)


De la Bère, R.
Mackeson, Brig. H R
Teeling, William


Dodds-Parker, A. D.
Maclay, Hon. J. S.
Thomas, J P. L. (Hereford)


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)
Thornton-Kemsley, C N


Drayson, G. B.
Maitland, Comdr. J W
Vane, W. M. F


Drewe, C.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Wadsworth, G


Dugdale, Maj. Sir T (Richmond)
Marshall, D. (Bodmin)
Walker-Smith, D


Duthie, W. S
Maude, J. C
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


Eccles, D. M.
Mellor, Sir J.
White, Sir D. (Fareham)


Fletcher, W. (Bury)
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Fox, Sir G.
Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord


Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Morris-Jones, Sir H.
Winterton, Rt Hon. Earl


Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Morrison, Maj. J G (Salisbury)
York, C.


Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D P M
Mott-Radclyffe, Maj. C E



Gage, C.
Neven-Spence, Sir B.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gammans, L. D.
Nicholson, G.
Major Conant and


George, Maj Rt. Hn. G Lloyd (P'ke)
Nield, B. (Chester)
 Lieut.-Colonel Thorp.


Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.
Orr-Ewing, I. L

Mr. Wadsworth: I beg to move, in page 44, line 18, to leave out from the beginning, to "give," and to insert "the Commission may."
I would make it clear that we are introducing into the Bill by this Amendment an element of flexibility which we consider it needs. The purpose is to give certain discretionary powers to the Commissioners in taking over long-distance transport vehicles. We claim that there are many objections to nationalisation but, if there is one outstanding objection, it is that when you nationalise an industry, it becomes rigid, and from the top to the bottom very few desire to take responsibility; whereas, in private enterprise, there is a much more flexible system and decisions are taken from day to day, and in fact from hour to hour, not only by the managing director but by many juniors. In fact, it will be remembered that, quite recently, on the National Coal Board the question arose of whether there

should be "Brylcreem" machines at the pithead. It caused great consternation and, judging from the newspaper articles, it seemed almost to break up the Coal Board. That sort of decision would obviously be made in private enterprise by some junior in eight minutes. [HON MEMBERS: "No."] It is in order to introduce this flexibility into the Bill that we suggest the Commissioners should have greater powers.
It is difficult to visualise what types of cases will be brought to the notice of the Commission when they are taking over vehicles throughout the whole of the British Isles, and it is possible that the Commissioners themselves may realise that it would be to the advantage of the efficiency of the undertaking not to take over certain vehicles in places like Cornwall and parts of Scotland perhaps, where there are special reasons why private enterprise would serve the efficiency of the industry much better than bringing


those vehicles within the orbit of these great nationalisation schemes. I shall call to my aid in arguing why the word "may" should be introduced not our friend Erskine, with whom we are all quite familiar, but no less a person than the schoolmaster of schoolmasters—the Leader of the House himself. In a speech he made in January he said:
Public interest counted and the real field for argument was how best should the industry be organised or managed with a view to achieving economic public advantage. It is up to the nationalisers to prove their case that there would he a public advantage by nationalisation. It is no less to the antinationalisers to prove their case that the public interest would best be served by private ownership.
Now I come to the really relevant part:
In all these schemes of nationalisation the Government intends to hold the right to adopt the form of ownership and management according to the circumstances of the case.
—which, as the Bill stands at present, it would not do because it is inflexible. It means that the Commissioners in every case will have no discretionary power in the taking over of these vehicles, and therefore my hon. Friends and myself believe that it will be to the advantage of the Minister to give this discretionary power. It must be remembered that if the Minister accepts this Amendment, the discretion is still with the Commission and with the Minister; in other words we do not take any power away from the Minister, we simply give that certain power into the hands of the Commissioners. Therefore, I hope the Minister will realise the advantage of this Amendment in helping him to carry out this nationalisation Measure. We are against the Bill as a nationalisation Measure; nevertheless we know it will be implemented in due course, and this is a genuine effort to be helpful.

Mr. Hopkin Morris: I beg to second the Amendment.
I do so formally, because the arguments for the Amendment are obvious.

Mr. Haworth: I am surprised that an Amendment like this should come from the Liberal Party whose Members claim so often that Parliament is delegating its powers to other bodies. Surely, in a case like this, where the conditions under which the Commission shall work are definitely laid down by Parlia-

ment, it would be a retrograde step from the point of view which the Liberal Party are so fond of expressing.

Mr. Byers: Is the hon. Member suggesting that this House of Commons should in future run the transport for the whole of the country?

Mr. Haworth: I am suggesting that what is in this Bill should remain in this Bill, that the conditions under which road haulage services should be taken over by the State should be decided by the House of Commons.

Mr. Hopkin Morris: I think the hon. Member misunderstands the effect of the Amendment. The Amendment does not vary the powers of the Commission; it merely says that they "may give" a notice of acquisition in certain circumstances.

Mr. Haworth: I am obliged to the hon and learned Gentleman for saying that what I have stated is quite right. Here conditions are laid down under which, if the Commissioners are satisfied that these conditions are complied with, they must nationalise the industry, but only if they are satisfied that those conditions are complied with. Under the Liberal Party Amendment the Commission can be satisfied that the conditions are complied with, but it is still left to them to use discretion between one part of the industry and another. One may comply with the conditions and they say they will not nationalise them, while another may not comply, and they say they will nationalise them.

8.30 p.m.

Mr. Oliver Poole: I want to be quite sure that I am following the hon. Gentleman's argument aright. He is apparently rejecting the Amendment on the grounds that what is in the Bill should not be altered, and that therefore the Amendment should not be accepted. But what becomes of the 129 Amendments proposed by the Minister?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That question does not arise here.

Mr. Haworth: I am surprised that a Liberal Member should move an Amendment such as this, because it delegates powers to the Commission. I hope the Parliamentary Secretary will stick to his guns, and not make any concession.

Mr. G. R. Strauss: There are even stronger reasons than those suggested by my hon. Friend the Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) for turning down the Amendment, although I think there was substance in his argument. The suggestion which the hon. Member for Buckrose (Mr. Wadsworth) put before the House is a plausible one. He asks why we should force the Commission to take over some firm which the Commission do not wish to take over. There may be some small firm which is unsatisfactory in many ways, and which may not fit in with the general scheme of the Commission—I am making his case for him—therefore why should we force the Commission to take over that firm? He says we should give the Commission discretion. That is all very well, but if there is to be discretion, it must be two-way discretion. At the moment, any firm can insist that the Commission shall take it over. Any firm engaged in long-distance work can serve notice on the Commission saying that it wants to be taken over. Presumably, it is just the unsatisfactory, uneconomical firm which does not wish to continue in existence, which would demand to be taken over, and which the Commission would have to take over whether they wished to or not. If a firm is interfered with to the extent that it is unable to get a licence to run over 25 miles, it can serve notice on the Commission to take it over. The discretion the hon. Member wants to give the Commission is not very much, because the firm can say, "You must take us over." The proposal is really of no value to the Commission at all, and would lead only to uncertainty. If the Commission decided that they did not want to take over a certain firm, that would be quite valueless, because the firm might, and in many cases probably would, insist on being taken over.

Mr. Peter Thorneycroft: I regard this Amendment as important. I am not going into the argument of whether it was a proper Amendment to be moved from the Liberal Benches or not. Let us deal with it on its merits. I think the Parliamentary Secretary will agree that there is a good deal of substance in support of it. The object of the Bill, according to the Government, is to ensure that we have what they call—and I do not like the words—"a co-ordinated and inte-

grated transport system." That object is certainly not at issue in this Amendment. The Amendment challenges no question of principle. If the Amendment were carried, it would still be within the powers of the Commission to take over all the longdistance firms which fall within the definition laid down by the Government. The Amendment does not restrict the powers of the Commission, but seeks to extend them. It does not curtail their authority or power in any way. Although I did not think very much of the argument advanced by the hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth), I do not think the Parliamentary Secretary improved on it very much. His case was that some businesses may be ruined and might insist on being taken over, and he said that there had to be two-way discretion. But the Commission cannot be prejudiced. The Commission would be no worse off if the Amendment were accepted.
This Bill, although it is a very long one, is really a Bill dealing with share transfers, and the taking over of authority or ownership of road haulage companies and railways, the issue of stock, and so forth. The real job of nationalising transport can only start after the Bill has passed through the House of Commons. There is an immense job, the establishment of a Commission, a selection of people to officer it, selection of the executives, the working out of charges schemes, and the rest—a long and difficult operation.

Mr. Keenan: This is not in the Amendment.

Mr. Thorneycroft: If the hon. Member wants to interrupt me, he may do so.

Mr. Keenan: Is the hon. Member in Order in dealing with a matter which is not in the Amendment?

Mr. Thorneycroft: I think I can be trusted not to elaborate unduly. The reason why I was emphasising these points is that it is going to take a considerable time—I do not want to put it higher than that—after the appointment of the Commission and a Road Transport Executive, before that Executive can work out in detail exactly on what basis it is to co-ordinate and integrate the transport system. Under the Amendment, it would be given a breathing space. The provision in the Bill is most extraordinary. First, the Commission are asked to express


themselves on a matter of opinion, and make up their minds whether in their opinion certain things are long distance or short distance. They are given considerable freedom in that, but, once having made up their minds on the matter of opinion, they have a duty imposed on them to take over the firm. It is not unreasonable, if one is to trust the Commission at all—and after all we are trusting them with the whole transport system of the country—to trust them to decide just when and which transport firm they are to take over.
I do not want to enter into controversial and widely different matters, but I think it is relevant to say that we have had some experience of this kind of problem already in discussions on the Coal Bill. I am not going to talk about the work of the miners, because from what I have read I think they are producing coal very well, but I wish I could say the same for the reorganisation of the industry. There is no doubt about it, that, with the advancement of the vesting date for compulsory acquisition, the re-organisation is in a state of muddle.
We do not want to get into the same position by compelling the Road Transport Commission to take over firms and undertakings too quickly and before it knows exactly and precisely what it wants. When this Bill was originally contemplated the situation was very different from what it is today. At that time we were nof, at any rate, apparently living on quite such a narrow margin in this country as in fact we are at present. To advance upon the road haulage industry, which is managing to carry the goods now, and to put it compulsorily and without any option, and very quickly, through the extraordinary evolution of going over to public ownership, is a rather risky thing to do. Under the Bill as drafted that will probably happen towards the end of next winter.
A Commission recently appointed, probably with its plans somewhat ill prepared, is to be faced not with the option, but with the duty, of taking over a lot of transport undertakings. The Amendment is designed to avoid placing the Commission in such an embarrassing position. [Interruption.] Hon. Members opposite may be very confident about what is going to happen next winter. Many people imagine that it may be a

very difficult time indeed. To compel the Commission in such a period, whether it thinks it right or wrong, suddenly to assume responsibility for running the whole range of goods haulage in this country, seems to be a most unwise thing to do. I suggest to the Parliamentary Secretary that this is an Amendment which should be looked at very carefully. We are not asking him to take anything away from the principle of the Bill or from the powers of the Commission. We ask him to trust the Commission which he is setting up—and which will have a much better opportunity of studying these matters—to decide which particular undertakings it wishes to take over and when it should do so.

Mr. Byers: I am a little amazed at the cavalier fashion in which the Parliamentary Secretary has sought to dispose of this Amendment. I do not believe that he really understands what the Amendment does to the Bill. As the hon. Member for Monmouth (Mr. P. Thorneycroft) said, it does, if anything, extend the powers of the Commission. It is a genuine attempt in the light of circumstances which may well prevail in the next few months or years, to get some sort of flexible administration into the working of this Commission and of the Bill itself.
I cannot understand this continuous refusal of the Labour Party to go in for anything which is flexible. Here there is a mandate imposed upon the Commission. The Commission is told that if certain undertakings fit into a very rigid formula then a notice of acquisition must be served. It must be served: there is no argument about that. That apparently appeals to some hon. Members opposite who like looking at these things in a very rigid way. I suggest to them that one of their number—perhaps two—may find himself upon this Commission. He may, if he makes the right sort of speeches, on the right sort of occasions, or if, as in the case of Sir Ben Smith, he makes the wrong sort of speeches on certain occasions.

Mr. Gallacher: The hon. Gentleman will go before the Committee of Privileges if he goes on like that.

8.45 p.m.

Mr. Byers: I hope hon. Members are not going to regard this as a punishment. I put this seriously. Let us look at it


from the point of view of somebody who is appointed as a member of the Commission. Would we not get far better, more workmanlike and businesslike results if we gave to the Commission a certain amount of leeway, discretion and flexibility? That is a point that I put to the Minister. It seems to me that there is substance in both arguments, and not merely in the one which says that it may not help the efficiency of the transport system of this country to take over a certain undertaking. I am not particularly worried about that argument. I think there is more substance in the argument that it may not suit the Commission's purpose to carry on acquiring these undertakings immediately after the vesting day. It may be that it might want to put it off because of industrial circumstances. That is a possibility. Next winter, or the winter after that, may be very difficult and it may be that it does not want to take over certain undertakings. It may be that it does not want to dislocate the industry at a particular moment.

Mr. Haworth: Does the hon. Gentleman seriously suggest that after this House of Commons has decided on a policy, any subordinate Commission should have the power or the responsibility of deciding that circumstances are not suitable and that an Act of Parliament must not be carried out because the circumstances are not right?

Mr. Byers: That is exactly what I am suggesting. I do not know whether the hon. Member was present when we discussed an earlier Amendment in which we had a similar argument. We were trying to get some flexibility into the Bill. We were arguing that it was quite wrong for the Minister to be able to say, in April, 1947, that everything would be ready for the Commission to take over on 1st January. I suggest quite seriously that at least some sort of discretionary power should be given to the Commission. In the Bill the Government told the Commission what they want to be done. The Amendment we suggest makes no difference to that. The Government have said what they want done. Surely, it is reasonable that the Commission should be given discretion in regard to when it shall do it and how it shall do it in certain circumstances. I do not think that the

hon. Member for Walton (Mr. Haworth) would say that he can guarantee that it would be right to serve notice of acquisition on each of the undertakings fitted into this rigid formula on 1st January, 1948.

Mr. Dryden Brook: Will not this Amendment give the Commission discretion to say whether or not a particular firm or firms shall be brought into the scheme?

Mr. Byers: Certainly it will. Let us get this clear. So far as road transport is concerned, the object of the Bill is to set up an efficient system. Is the hon. Member arguing that the Government ought to have an inefficient system of transport because it says so in the Bill, or does he want an efficient system because the Commission is running its own business in the way it wants? That is the difference between us. I defy the Minister to claim that he will be able to say in two years' time that we were not right. I ask him to give us an assurance that he will reconsider this matter. The Bill is far too rigid. If the Minister does not reconsider it, I think I shall know the reason why. It will be because the Government are not in power but only in office. The Minister is frightened of giving a certain impression to his own back benchers who are in the habit of revolting. He is afraid that he will get a back bench revolt because this Amendment will be interpreted by some of his back benchers as an indication that he is going back on his desire to nationalise road transport. This Amendment does nothing of the sort. I can assure him that we would support him against his own back benchers. [Interruption.] It would not be the first occasion upon which we had supported him This is a serious point and unless we can have an assurance from the Minister, we shall divide upon this Amendment.

Brigadier Mackeson: The Chief Liberal Whip took a very realistic approach in suggesting that we should look at this problem from the point of view of the Commission. Far be it from me to suggest which of the hon. Members opposite should be members of the Commission. We all have our own views about that on this side of the House. We shall look forward to seeing one or two of our colleagues in this position.
I believe that this matter may be looked at in a somewhat different way. It


is possible that the Commission, when appointed, will want to make a proper inquiry into the complications of road haulage, which it will have to operate through the Road Transport Executive. Surely, when it comes to making this inquiry, it may find I do not say it will —that, in some of the isolated districts, it does not wish to take over some of the operators which, under this Clause as it is now drafted, it is obliged to do straight away. It may also be the case regarding some of the more technical tasks involved, and particularly one which some of us who live in South-East England are very concerned about—the carriage of perishable foodstuffs—and I km much afraid that that, again, is a matter which we shall not have time to discuss, for reasons beyond our control. It may be, when we get down to this very technical and difficult problem, the Commission will say, "Let us wait for a year or two," rather in the same way in which the taking over of the buses is to be postponed.
Therefore, I would issue a word of warning to the Minister. He may find that, by refusing to accept this Amendment, in due course the Commission may come to him and say, "We wish you had accepted it," because the one thing which this Amendment is not doing is restricting

the Minister's powers or the powers of the Commission. It is perfectly clear at the moment that neither the Minister nor the Commission, when it is set up, will have all the facts at their disposal that will be required. These facts are simply not available. I myself have asked the Minister Questions on the distances travelled by vehicles in the coastal areas, but these facts do not exist at the moment. I do not say that it is the fault of the Minister or of the right hon. Gentleman who preceded him, because we have been at war for six years and many of the economic facts of the country have been changed. We are now about to make another change into a position in which the Commission will take over a number of things which it may not want to do immediately.

I hope the Liberal Party will press this Amendment to a Division, and I hope the Minister will consider that there is some substance in it. I hope he will consider, at a later stage in another place, accepting an Amendment which will give the elasticity which the hon. Member below the Gangway desires.

Question put, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Bill."

The House divided: Ayes, 317; Noes, 115.

Division No. 163.]
AYES
[8.54 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Diamond, J.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Buchanan, G.
Dobbie, W.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Burden, T. W.
Dodds, N. N.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Burke, W A.
Driberg, T. E. N.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)


Alpass, J. H.
Callaghan, James
Durbin, E. F. M


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Carmichael, James
Dye, S.


Attewell, H. C.
Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.


Austin, H. L.
Chamberlain, R. A
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Champion, A. J.
Edwards, John (Blackburn)


Bacon, Miss A
Chater, D.
Edwards, N (Caerphilly)


Baird, J.
Chetwynd, G. R.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)


Balfour, A
Clitherow, Dr. R
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A J
Cobb, F. A.
Evans, John (Ogmore)


Barstow, P. G
Cocks, F. S.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)


Barton, C.
Coldrick, W.
Ewart, R.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Collindridge, F.
Fairhurst, F.


Bellenger, Rt. Hon. F. J
Collins, V. J.
Farthing, W. J.


Benson, G
Colman, Miss G. M.
Field, Captain W. J.


Berry, H.
Comyns, Dr. L.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)


Beswick, F.
Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Follick, M.


Bing, G. H. C
Corlett, Dr J
Foot, M. M.


Binns, J.
Corvedale, Viscount
Forman, J. C.


Blackburn, A. R.
Cove, W. G.
Foster, W. (Wigan)


Blenkinsop, A
Crawley, A.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton)


Blyton, W. R.
Grossman, R. H. S.
Gallacher, W.


Boardman, H.
Daggar, G.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S


Bottomley, A. G.
Daines, P.
Gibbins, J.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Gibson, C. W


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Gilzean, A.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Davies, Harold (Le[...]k)
Gooch, E. G.


Bramall, Major E. A.
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Goodrich, H. E.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Gordon-Walker, P. C


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Deer, G.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)


Brown, George (Belper)
Delargy, Captain H. J
Grenfell, D R.




Grey, C. F.
Manning C. (Camberwell, N.)
Skinnard, F. W.


Grierson, E.
Marquand, H. A.
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)


Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (LlaneIly)
Mathers, G.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Mayhew, C. P.
Solley, L. J.


Guest, Dr. L. Haden

Medland, H. M.
Sorensen, R. W.


Gunter, R. J.
Mellish, R. J.
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.


Guy, W. H.
Messer, F.
Stamford, W.


Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Mikardo, Ian
Steele, T.


Hale, Leslie
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R
Stephen, C.


Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Mitchison, Major G. R.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Monslow, W.
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Hardman, D. R.
Montague, F.
Stubbs, A. E.


Hardy, E. A.
Moody, A. S.
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Harrison, J.
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Swingler, S.


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Morley, R.
Sylvester, G. O.


Haworth, J.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Symonds, A. L


Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Morrison, Rt. Hon. H. (Lewisham, E.)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Hewitson, Capt. M.
Mort, D. L.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Hicks, G.
Moyle, A.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Holman. P.
Murray, J. D.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Nally, W.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


House, G.
Naylor, T. E.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Hubbard, T.
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Thurtle, Ernest


Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Tiffany, S.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Timmons, J.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Titterington, M. F.


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Tolley, L.


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
O'Brien, T.
Turner-Samuels, M.


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Oldfield, W. H.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Irving, W. J.
Oliver, G. H.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Paget, R. T.
Viant, S. P.


Janner, B.
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Walkden, E.


Jay, D. P. T.
Paling, Will T, (Dewsbury)
Walker, G. H.


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Palmer, A. M. F.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Parker, J.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


John, W.
Parkin, B. T.
Warbey, W. N.


Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Watkins, T. E.


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Watson, W. M.


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Pearson, A.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Peart, Capt. T. F.
Weitzman, D.


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Keenan, W.
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Key, C W.
Porter, E. (Warrington).
West, D G.


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Kinley, J.
Proctor, W. T.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Kirkwood, D.
Pryde, D. J.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Lavers, S.
Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.
Randall, H. E.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.


Lee, F. (Hulme)
Ranger, J,
Wilkes, L.


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Rankin, J.
Wilkins, W. A.


Leonard, W.
Reeves, J
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Leslie, J R.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Willey, C. G. (Cleveland)


Levy, B. W.
Rhodes, H.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Richards, R.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Robins, A.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Lindgren, G. S.
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Williamson, T.


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Willis, E.


Logan, D. G.
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Longden, F.
Royle, C.
Wilmot, Rt. Hon J


Lyne, A. W.
Scollan, T.
Wise, Major F. J.


McAdam, W.
Scott-Elliot, W.
Woodburn, A.


McEntee, V. La T
Shackleton, E. A. A
Wyatt, W.


McGhee, H. G.
Sharp, Granville
Yates, V. F.


McKinlay, A. S.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Maclean, N. (Govan)
Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


MoLeavy. F.
Shurmer, P.



Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Mr. Snow and Mr. Popplewell.


Mann, Mrs. J.
Simmons, C. J.





NOES.


Agnew, Cmdr. P. G
Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Cooper-Key, E. M.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T
Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.


Astor, Hon. M.
Butcher, H. W.
Cuthbert, W. N.


Baldwin, A. E.
Carson, E.
Darling, Sir W. Y


Barlow, Sir J.
Challen, C.
Davies, Clement (Montgomery)


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Channon, H.
De la Bère, R.


Beechman, N. A.
Clarke, Col. R. S.
Dodds-Parker, A. D.


Bennett, Sir P.
Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col. G
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.


Bowen, R.
Cole, T. L.
Dower, E. L. C. (Caithness)


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Conant, Maj. R. J. E
Drayson, G. B.







Drewe, C.
Linstead, H. N
Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)


Duthie, W. S.
Lipson, D. L.
Reid, Rt. Hon. J. S. C. (Hillhead)


Fletcher, W. (Bury)
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)
Renton, D.


Fox, Sir G.

Low, Brig, A. R. W.
Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)


Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Roberts, H. (Handsworth)


Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.
Roberts, Mai. P G. (Ecclesall)


Gage, C.
MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)
Ropner, Col. L.


Gammans, L. D.
Macdonald, Sir P. (Isle of Wight)
Ross, Sir R.


George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)
Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Salter, Rt Hon. Sir J. A.


Gomme-Duncan, Col. A. G.
Maclay, Hon. J. S.
Shephard, S. (Newark)


Grant, Lady
Macmillan, Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)


Gridley, Sir A.
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)
Smith, E. P. (Ashford)


Grimston, R. V.
Maitland, Comdr. J. W.
Spence, H. R.


Haughton, S. G.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Strauss, H. G. (English Universities)


Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Hon. Sir C.
Marshall, D. (Bodmin)
Stuart, Rt. Hon. J. (Moray)


Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Mellor, Sir J
Studholme, H. G.


Hogg, Hon. Q.
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.
Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd'ton, S.)


Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Morris, Hopkin (Carmarthen)
Teeling, William


Howard, Hon. A.
Neven-Spence, Sir B.
Thomas, J. P. L. (Hereford)


Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)
Nicholson, G.
Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)


Hulbert, Wing-Comdr. N. J.
Nield, B. (Chester)
Thornton-Kemsley, C. N.


Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W.)
Orr-Ewing, I. L.
Thorp, Lt.-Col. R. A. F.


Jeffreys, General Sir G.
Peto, Brig. C. H. M.
Vane, W. M. F.


Jennings, R.
Pickthorn, K,
Walker-Smith, D.


Kendall, W. D.
Poole, O B. S. (Oswestry)
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Lambert, Hon. G.
Prescott, Stanley
White, Sir D. (Fareham)


Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Price-White, Lt.-Col. D.
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Langford-Holt, J.
Prior-Palmer, Brig. O.



Lindsay, M. (Solihull)
Rayner, Brig. R.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:




Mr. Byers and Mr. Wadsworth

9.0 p.m.

Mr. Oliver Poole: I beg to move, in page 44, line 24, to leave out "forty," and to insert "eighty."
We are now drawing to the close of these proceedings. It is not, perhaps, without significance that we should be ending with this particular Amendment, because throughout the Committee stage and the Second Reading, and, indeed, throughout the last three days, we have heard a great deal from both sides of the House as to the intention of the Government to take over the long-distance road haulage industry. In spite of the various remarks of the hon. Member for Enfield {Mr. Ernest Davies), who has been such a help to us throughout the whole of our deliberations, and the remarks of other of his hon. Friends who have evidenced their intention of taking over all the transport they can get hold of, the right hon. Gentleman and the Parliamentary Secretary have adhered to their original plan of only taking over long-distance road haulage.
One of the points most brought out is that very little indication has been given in the Bill as to the actual significance of the 40 miles and the 25 miles which are being selected for some arbitrary reason by the Government as the delimitation as between long and short-distance road haulage. The best reasoning that we could obtain from the right hon. Gentleman during the Committee stage was that it has been necessary to fix an arbitrary figure. He said—and I must say that he

said it with some justification as, indeed, all his remarks have been—that he had to find a sensible middle position. I am prepared to agree that any single distance that was selected would inevitably have to be arbitrary, inasmuch as one mile one side or the other would not be satisfactory everywhere. It seems to us very remarkable that the same distance should be chosen for all over the country, because a distance that is suitable for, say, London or the Southern Counties, might be quite unsuitable for my own constituency, for other parts of the country, and for districts in Scotland and Wales. Indeed, there are some very remarkable features of this aspect of the Bill.
To take a few obvious examples, Liverpool will be severed from Manchester and Glasgow from Edinburgh. The normal short-distance haulier running between those places will now be precluded from doing so. In Greater London, the distance will fall in the middle of the built-up area, so that we shall have the remarkable situation of a haulier who will be permitted to go as far as Hyde Park Corner, but who will be breaking the law if he goes as far as Piccadilly Circus. That will be the effect of this legislation, and I am sure it will be agreed on all sides that it is entirely unnatural. There are two aspects of this particular problem to which I would like to refer. The first is that it is intended by the Government and the Minister to take over something like 2,000 to 2,500 operators That figure is based on the number of


firms controlled during the war, when the free running distance was 60 miles from point to point.
I suggest that under this new restriction, the number taken over, because of the rather peculiar limitation which the restriction will bring about, will be vastly in excess of that figure. In fact, the Minister will find himself taking over not only firms engaged in normal long distance haulage of, say, from London to Manchester or from the South of England to Scotland, which is the intention of the Bill and of all hon. Members opposite, but firms engaged in short-distance haulage between two towns, such as between Manchester and Liverpool, or Glasgow and Edinburgh, and from my own constituency, from, say, Shrewsbury in Shropshire to some place in Wales, or to some other part of the country. Therefore, he will find himself taking over a very large number of small concerns which will be quite uneconomical for him to run and which the Commission will find unsuitable. This transfer will produce very wasteful transport, and will cause the Commission great difficulty.
There is another aspect which I would like to put to the Minister once again, because the last time I got no very satisfactory answer. I would like to know how the right hon. Gentleman is going to enforce these restrictions. One of the faults of our present legislation is that a vast number of laws, regulations and restrictions are imposed which many people think are unreasonable and unnatural, and experience has shown that, whereas the people of this country are law abiding and anxious to carry out restrictions, laws and regulations, to a bigger degree than in many other countries, the time will come when those laws are so unreasonable that the people will not do so. How is the Commission, or the police court or whoever is detailed to do it, to tell whether or not a vehicle has run beyond its distance? I am not talking about the long distance haulier but the man who operates on the outskirts of London. How is anyone to know if he takes a load five miles beyond his normal distance? If two vehicles are going up Regent Street, how is anyone to know whether one is within the limit and the other is beyond it? I suggest that because these arbitrary distances are

illogical, many people will go outside them and will break the law.
I suppose the Minister will say that the Commission can handle efficiently all the transport that it takes over and that, therefore, there will be no desire on the part of private enterprise to run distances longer than the short-distance road haulier. I do not believe that will be so,. By excluding short distance traffic, the Government have already shown that they think it would be more efficiently and economically handled by private enterprise, and that is understandable in view of the personal service which the movement of this traffic involves and in view of the large number of small parcels which are carried over these short distances. What we are doing in this Amendment is not in any way to interfere with the principles of the Bill, nor to prevent the Minister from taking over the type of transport he requires, but to find a more reasonable limit and a wider distance which will be more suitable throughout the country, and not in limited areas.

9.15 p.m.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I beg to second the Amendment.
We have given considerable attention to the professions of the Government that what they desire to take over is longdistance haulage, and we are trying to consider that point from various aspects of the matters dealt with in the Bill. But now we get down to the test. Although the Minister was restrained and called the test arbitrary very few other people could find the same self-control in even choosing as kind a word as that. What is the test? The haul is not to be more than 40 miles even though the conditions obtaining are that one vehicle is not more than 25 miles from its operating centre. Anything over that is a long distance haul. The Minister has confessed—and for the very good reason that he was bound to confess, and could not make any other answer—that this is merely an arbitrary choice. Therefore, on the confession of the Minister of Transport it is established that these road hauliers, who have been the subject of so many sneers from hon. Members opposite, are to lose their businesses, or to keep them on a test which is admittedly arbitrary, and cannot be defended on any ground of justice whatsoever.
Let us see if we cannot, by that exercise of good will which we are always so


ready to display, try to find if there is not a ground, or a vestige of a ground. Perhaps the Minister sees in a glass darkly. Let us try to imagine what he sees in a glass darkly when he is trying to think out the fate of road hauliers. There are some hon. Members opposite who sit for Metropolitan constituencies, and I should like to develop the point made by my hon. Friend the Member for Oswestry (Mr. Poole) with regard to the Metropolitan area. I have been looking hopefully for some representative of the Ministry of Town and Country Planning, but I do not see one. However, as all hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are planners rather more than less, they will all appreciate this point. London, said the Minister of Town and Country Planning, is to be based on Professor Sir Patrick Abercrombie's plan. The Greater London area—if I may remind hon. Members opposite, who might have forgotten this, as it is a crude practical fact—comprises some 2,700 square miles. A short exercise in arithmetic— which I recommend to the Minister when he is reconsidering this formula for longdistance haulage—will show him or the right hon. Gentleman the Home Secretary that the diameter of the Greater London area is 60 miles. What is suggested as the test is, therefore, two-thirds of the distance across the Greater London area. As my hon. Friend said in moving the Amendment, what is suggested as a complementary test is that one vehicle, if its operating centre is on the Northern outskirts of London, is to be able to get to Hyde Park Corner; otherwise, it is long distance and his livelihood is gone.
So much for London. As far as the Metropolitan area is concerned, I submit that no more unbounded piece of arbitrariness has ever existed outside the works of Lewis Carroll. A number of hon. Members opposite are, like myself, more familiar with Northern areas. I recommend to them consideration of the Mersey area. As again was pointed out, a run from Liverpool to Manchester is regarded as long-distance haulage. Yet Liverpool and Manchester are what planners opposite would call a "conurbation." This limit is mere folly. I go with the Chief Whip of my party to Scotland, where the same crass stupidity is applied. A run from Edinburgh to Glasgow is to be regarded as long distance.
But if the Government do not like towns, if they do not like to consider the areas of production, despite all the calls for greater production which hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite are always issuing, let us deal, for a moment, with the rural areas, where this problem is even more acute. Consider any sparsely populated part of the country—in the West, Dorset or Devon; or the North of Scotland, an even more sparsely populated country. Forty miles in those areas is not regarded as any distance, and the idea that a vehicle in those areas is not to be more than 25 miles from its operating centre is simply ridiculous. One would imagine that the right hon. Gentleman, and those who have advised this course of action, think that every road in the rural parts of Britain is absolutely straight, and that one does not have to add to one's journey by going round physical features.
But I have tried to take some of the tests which apply to different parts of the country. Let us take another test which hon. Gentlemen opposite have not been slow to use, when it suited them in argument on this matter. Let us take what was done in the war. Then, the limit which was put was 60 miles. Apparently, it is the way hon. and right hon. Gentlemen opposite think most fitting to greet the expansionist era as seen through their spectacles, or through the wrong end of their telescope, that, whereas in the war it was right that the limit should be 60, in the piping time of Socialist expansionist peace the limit should be contracted to 40.
There is another way in which this can possibly be viewed. One cannot find any basis for it at all, and one is left gasping at the mentality which can bring it about. So worried have I been by this aspect of the matter that I have considered whether one could not really approach this matter by analogy. Suppose, merely for the sake of illustration and analogy, one were to ask, "Is this Report stage a long or a short Report stage?" One way in which one could consider whether this was a long or a short Report stage—and this would be the argument of the right hon. Gentleman the Minister of Transport—would be to say, "I have had 47 Amendments called and dealt with, and the Opposition have had 17 called, practically all of which have been refused." But then, surely, if he was considering whether the 11½ hours of which this Report stage has consisted was a long



or short Report stage, he would have to take into account, apart from the 47 Amendments that he has had called, his 92 Amendments which have not been called. Would not he also have to consider the fact that in addition to the 17 Opposition Amendments that have been dealt with, 2O4 have not been called and will not be dealt with? Following on that line, and dealing with the analogy which I am sure the right hon. Gentleman will find most helpful in the problem which we are discussing at the moment, he might say, "Ah, but the Opposition, it is true, have had 17 Amendments called, but then they have taken more time than they should." The right hon. Gentleman is too kind to make that sort of remark. I admit at once, but those behind him will probably say so. But even if he were to say that the Opposition have spoken twice as long, or three times as long, or even if the acting Leader of the House were to say they had spoken four times as long, there would still be 151 Amendments not dealt with. That I suggest just shows how, if one takes the trouble to find an analogy, one can find a really constructive and sensible basis for deciding at any rate whether a Report stage is a long or a short Report stage.
My complaint, and the complaint of my right hon. and hon. Friend with regard

Division No. 164.]
AYES.
[9.30 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Daggar, G.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Daines, P.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Bramall, Major E. A.
Davies, Edward (Burslem)


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Brook, D. (Halifax)
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Davies, Harold (Leek)


Allighan, Garry
Brown, George (Belper)
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)


Alpass, J. H.
Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Buchanan, G.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)


Attewell, H. C.
Burden, T. W.
Deer, G.


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Burke, W. A.
Delargy, Captain H. J.


Austin, H. L.
Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Diamond, J.


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Callaghan, James
Dobbie, W.


Bacon, Miss A.
Carmichael, James
Dodds, N. N.


Baird, J.
Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Driberg, T. E. N.


Balfour, A.
Chamberlain, R. A.
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Champion, A. J.
Durbin, E. F. M.


Barstow, P. G.
Chater, D.
Dye, S.


Barton, C.
Chetwynd, G. R.
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.



Battley, J. R.
Clitherow, Dr. R.
Edwards, A. (Middlesbrough, E.)


Bechervaise, A. E.
Cobb, F. A.
Edwards, John (Blackburn)


Belcher, J. W.
Cocks, F. S.
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)


Benson, G.
Coldrick, W.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)


Berry, H.
Collindridge, F.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)


Beswick, F.
Collins, V. J.
Evans, John (Ogmore)


Bevan, Rt. Hon A. (Ebbw Vale)
Colman, Miss G. M
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)


Bing, G. H. C.
Comyns, Dr. L.
Ewart, R.


Binns, J.
Cook, T. F.
Fairhurst, F.


Blackburn, A. R.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Farthing, W. J.


Blenkinsop, A
Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Field, Captain W. J.


Blyton, W. R.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)


Boardman, H.
Corvedale, Viscount
Follick, M.


Bottomley, A. G.
Cove, W. G.
Foot, M. M.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Crawley, A.
Forman, J. C.


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Crossman, R. H. S.
Foster, W. (Wigan)

to this Amendment, is that there has been admittedly no attempt whatsoever to deal with it. I have endeavoured—

Mr. Gallacher: The right hon. and learned Gentleman is doing it well.

Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe: I have endeavoured, with the help of the hon. Gentleman the Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher), to give some idea of the complete inability of the Minister to tackle this Amendment, but what I would say is this. This Amendment is only typical of everything that has happened during the last three days' sorry parody of legislative effort. I leave this to hon. Gentlemen opposite. They are ready to disturb and confuse the road haulage industry—

It being Half Past Nine o'clock, Mr. SPEAKER proceeded, pursuant to the Order made upon 3rd March, successively to put forthwith the Questions on Amendments moved by the Government, of which notice had been given.

Amendment proposed; In page 44, line 30, after "vehicle," to insert:
or in a tank not so fixed of which the capacity is not less than five hundred gallons."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 34O; Noes, 144.

Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
McGhee, H. G
Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H (St. Helens)


Freeman, Peter (Newport)
McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.


Gaitskell, H. T. N.
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N. W)
Shurmer, P.


Gallacher, W.
McKinlay, A. S.
Silverman, J. (Erdington)


Ganley, Mrs. C. S
Maclean, N. (Govan)
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Gibbins, J.
McLeavy, F.
Simmons, C. J.


Gibson, C. W
Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Skeffington, A. M.


Gilzean, A.
Mainwaring, W. H.
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C


Gooch, E. G
Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Skinnard, F. W.


Goodrich, H. E.
Mann, Mrs. J.
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)


Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A (Wakefield)
Marquand, H. A.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Greenwood, A. W J (Heywood)
Marshall. F. (Brightside)
Solley, L. J.


Grenfell, D. R.
Mathers, G.
Sorensen, R. W.


Grey, C. F.
Mayhew, C. P
Soskice, Maj. Sir F


Grierson, E.
Medland, H. M.
Stamford, W


Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Mellish, R. J
Steele, T.


Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Messer, F.
Stephen, C.


Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Mikardo, Ian
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R
Strachey, J.


Gunter, R. J.
Mitchison, Major G. R.
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Guy, W. H.
Monslow, W.
Stubbs, A. E.


Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Montague, F.
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Hale, Leslie
Moody, A. S
Swingler, S.


Hall, W. G.
Morgan, Dr. H. B
Sylvester, G. O.


Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Morley, R.
Symonds, A. L.


Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield. C.)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Hardman, D. R.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Hardy, E. A
Mort, D. L
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Harrison, J
Moyle, A.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Murray, J. D.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Haworth, J.
Nally, W.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh. E.)


Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Naylor, T. E.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Thurtle, Ernest


Hewitson, Capt. M.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Tiffany, S


Hicks, G.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F E. (Brantford)
Timmons, J.


Hobson, C. R.
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Titterington, M. F


Holman, P.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Tolley, L.


Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)
O'Brien, T.
Turner-Samuels, M.


House, G.
Oldfield, W. H.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Hubbard, T.
Oliver, G. H.
Usborne, Henry


Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Paget, R. T.
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Viant, S. P.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Walkden, E


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Palmer, A. M F
Walker, G. H.


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Parker, J
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Parkin, B. T.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Irving, W. J.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Warbey, W. N.


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Watkins, T. E.


Janner, B.
Pearson, A.
Watson, W. M.


Jay, D. P. T.
Pearl, Capt T. F.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Piratin, P.
Weitzman, D.


Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


John, W.
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Porter, E. (Warrington)
West, D. G.


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Westwood, Rt. Hon J.


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Price, M. Philips
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Pritt, D. N.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Proctor, W T
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Keenan, W.
Pryde, D. J
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A B


Key, C. W
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Wilkes, L.


King, E. M.
Randall, H. E.
Wilkins, W. A.


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E
Ranger, J.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Kinley, J.
Rankin, J
Willey, O. G. (Cleveland)


Kirkwood, D.
Reeves, J.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Lavers, S.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Lee, F. (Hulme)
Rhodes, H.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Richards, R.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Leslie, J. R.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Williamson, T


Levy, B. W.
Robens, A.
Willis, E.


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Wilmot, Rt. Hon. J


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Wise, Major F. J.


Lindgren, G. S.
Royle, C.
Woodburn, A.


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Sargood, R
Wyatt, W.


Logan, D. G.
Scollan, T
Yates, V. F


Longden, F.
Scott-Elliot, W.
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Lyne, A. W.
Shackleton, E. A A
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


McAdam, W.
Sharp, Granville



McEntee, V. La T
Shawcross, C. N (Widnes)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:




Mr. Popplewell and Mr. Snow.







NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
George, Maj. Rt. Hn. G. Lloyd (P'ke)
Morrison, Maj. J. C. (Salisbury)


Astor, Hon. M.
George, Lady M. Lloyd (Anglesey)
Mott-Radclyfte, Maj. C E


Baldwin, A. E
Gomme-Duncan, Col. A G
Neven-Spence, Sir B.


Barlow, Sir J.
Grant, Lady
Nicholson, G.


Beamish, Maj T. V. H.
Granville, E. (Eye)
Nield, B. (Chester)


Beechman, N. A.
Gridley, Sir A.
Noble, Comdr. A. H. P


Bennett Sir P.
Grimston, R. V.
Orr-Ewing, I. L.


Birch, Nigel
Hare, Hon. J. H. (Woodbr[...]
[...]to, Brig. C H M


Boothby, R
Haughton, S. G.
[...]kthorn, K.


Bowen R.
Headlam, Lieut.-Col. Rt. Mon. Sir C.
Poole, O B S (Oswestry)


Boyd-Carpenter, J. A.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Prescott, Stanley


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Price-White, Lt.-Cot O


Buchan-Hepburn, P. G. T
Hogg, Hon. Q.
Prior-Palmer, Brig O


Bullock, Capt. M
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Rayner, Brig. R


Butcher, H W
Howard, Hon. A.
Reed, Sir S. (Aylesbury)


Byers, Frank
Hudson, Rt. Hon. R. S. (Southport)
Reid, Rt. Hon J. S. C (Hillhead)


Carson, E
Hulbert, Wing-Comdr. N. J.
Renton, D


Challen, C
Hutchison, Lt.-Cdr. Clark (Edin'gh, W)
Roberts, Emrys (Merioneth)


Channon, H.
Jeffreys, General Sir G.
Roberts, H. (Handsworth)


Clarke, Col. R. S.
Jennings, R.
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Clifton-Brown, Lt.-Col G
Joynson-Hicks, Lt.-Cdr Hon. L. W
Robinson, Wing-Comdr. Roland


Cole, T. L.
Kendall, W. D.
Ropner, Col. L.


Conant, Maj. R. J. E
Lambert, Hon. G
Ross, Sir R.


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Lancaster, Col. C. G.
Salter, Rt Hon. Sir J. A


Crookshank, Capt. Rt. Hon. H F. C

Langford-Holt, J.
Shephard, S. (Newark)


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Legge-Bourke, Maj. E. A. H.
Shepherd, W. S. (Bucklow)


Crowder, Capt. J. F. E.
Lennox-Boyd, A. T
Smith, E. P (Ashford)


Cuthbert, W. N
Lindsay, M. (Solihull)
Spearman, A. C. M


Darling, Sir W. Y
Linstead, H. N
Spence, H R


Davies, Clement (Montgomery)
Lipson, D. L.
Strauss, H G (English Universities)


De la Bère, R.
Lloyd, Selwyn (Wirral)
Stuart, Rt Hon J (Moray)


Dodds-Parker, A. D
Low, Brig. A. R. W
Taylor, Vice-Adm E A (P'dd'ton. S.)


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P W.
Lucas, Maj. Sir J.
Teeling, William


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Lucas-Tooth, Sir H.
Thomas, J P L (Hereford)


Drayson, G. B.
MacAndrew, Col. Sir C.
Thorneycroft, G. E P. (Monmouth)


Drewe, C.
MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)
Thornton-Kemsley, C. N


Dugdale, Maj. Sir I. (Richmond)
Macdonald, Sir P (Isle of Wight)
Thorp, Lt.-Col. R A F


Duthie, W S.
Mackeson, Brig. H. R.
Vane, W. M. F


Eccles, D. M.
McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Wadsworth, G.


Elliot, Lieut.-Colonel W.
Maclay, Hon. J. S.
Walker-Smith, D


Fletcher, W. (Bury)
Macmillan. Rt. Hon. Harold (Bromley)
Wheatley, Colonel M


Foster, J. G. (Northwich)
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)
White, Sir D. (Fareham)


Fox, Sir G.
Maitland, Comdr. J W
Williams, Gerald (Tonbridge)


Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Marlowe, A. A. H
Willoughby de Eresby, Lord


Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Marsden, Capt. A
Winterton, Rt. Hon Earl


Fyfe, Rt. Hon. Sir D. P. M
Marshall, D. (Bodmin)
York, C


Gage, C.
Mellor, Sir J



Galbraith, Cmdr. T. D.
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Gammans, L. D.
Morris. Hopkin (Carmarthen)
Commander Agnew and




 Mr. Studholme.

CLAUSE 40.—(Tests as to whether ordinary long-distance carriage for hire or reward predominates.)

Amendments made:

In page 46, line 25, at end, insert:
(3) Where in the year nineteen hundred and forty-six goods were carried for hire or reward and the carriage thereof was charged for by volume ascertained by means of calibration marks on a vehicle, stamped with a stamp of verification under section twenty-nine of the Weights and Measures Act, 1878, the weight of the goods shall be calculated for the purposes of paragraph (a) of the said Subsection (1) at such ratio to the volume ascertained as aforesaid as is customary in relation to those goods in the appropriate trade or industry

In page 46, line 28. after "volume," insert:

ascertained otherwise than by means of calibration marks on the vehicle."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 44.—(General effect of notice of acquisition.)

Amendment proposed: In page 5O, line 35, at end, insert:
(d) any reference (however worded and whether express or implied) to the directors or any of the directors of the transferor (being a body corporate) were, as respects anything falling to be done on or after the date of transfer, a reference to such person as the Commission may appoint; and
(e) any reference (however worded and whether express or implied) to any officer or any servant of the transferor were, as respects anything falling to be done on or after the date of transfer, a reference to such person as the Commission may appoint or, in default of appointment, to the officer or servant of the Commission who corresponds as nearly as may be to the first mentioned officer or servant; and "—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

Sir Alan Herbert: I said, "No," Mr. Speaker. A little more serious attention might be paid by the Chair.

Mr. Speaker: Does the hon. Gentleman say "No"?

Sir A. Herbert: I say "No," Sir.

The House proceeded to a Division.

Mr. SNOW and Mr. POPPLEWELL were nominated Tellers for the "Ayes," but no Members being willing to act as Tellers for the "Noes," Mr. SPEAKER declared that the "Ayes" had it.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 50, line 41, leave out "two," and insert "four."

In page 50, line 47, at end, insert:
Provided that any relevant contract which cannot have effect as modified in the manner provided by this subsection by reason only that, if it were so modified no person other than the Commission would have any rights or liabilities thereunder shall cease to have effect as respects anything falling to be done on or after the date of transfer."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 46.—(Amount of compensation.)

Amendment made: In page 53, line 25, after "condition," insert "at that date."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 47.—(Date and mode of payment of compensation.)

Amendment made; In page 56, line 6, leave out "quarter," and insert "tenth."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 49.—(Duty of transferor as to carrying on undertaking until transfer.)

Amendment made: In page 58, line 24, after first "the," insert "previous."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Amendment proposed: In page 58, line 24, after "Commission," insert "given either generally or specially."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

Mr. Godfrey Nicholson: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker, I did not hear the Amendment you were putting.

Mr. Speaker: I am doing my best. I was talking as loudly as I could.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 51.—(Additional restrictions on carriage of goods for hire or reward.)

Amendment made: In page 60, line 42, after "vehicles," insert:
or in a tank not so fixed of which the capacity is not less than five hundred gallons."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 54.—(Appeals from decisions of licensing authorities.)

Amendment made: In page 65, line 40, at the end; insert:
(4) In relation to any appeal brought before the day which is the appointed day for the purposes of the provisions of Part V of this Act relating to the transfer to the Transport Tribunal of jurisdiction under the said Section fifteen, the preceding provisions of this section shall have effect subject to the following modifications:—

(a) for the references in Subsections (1) and (2) to the Transport Tribunal there shall be substituted references to the Tribunal mentioned in the said Section fifteen; and
(b) Subsection (3) shall not apply but the provisions of the said Section fifteen and of any rules made thereunder, and the said provisions of Part V of this Act, shall apply in relation to the appeals as they apply in relation to the appeals mentioned in the said Section fifteen."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 61.—(Preparation and approval of area road transport schemes.)

Amendments made: In page 71, line 16, leave out from the first "the," to the third "to," in line 17, and insert:
Minister may—

(a) specify an area, and
(b) direct the Commission."

In line 19, leave out from "to," to the end of line 20, and insert:
the area so specified and the Commission shall give effect to any such directions."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 62.—(Contents of area road transport schemes.)

Amendments made: In page 72, line 25, leave out "and," and insert:
(h) for repealing or amending any previous scheme in force with respect to the area or any other area the whole or any part of which falls within the area; and.

In line 29, leave out from "amending," to "any," in line 32.—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 64.—(Schemes as to harbours.)

Amendment made: In page 74, line 8, after "using," insert:
and of workers actually employed in."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 64.—(Schemes as to harbours.)

Amendment proposed: In page 74, line i8, to leave out from "Harbours," to end of line 19.—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 346; Noes, 31.

O'Brien, T.
Sharp, Granville
Tolley, L.


OldfieId, W. H.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Turner-Samuels, M.


Oliver, G. H.
Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Paget, R. T.
Shinwell, Rt. Hon. E.
Usborne, Henry


Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Shurmer, P.
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Paling, Will T, (Dewsbury)
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Viant, S P.


Palmer, A. M. F.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Walkden, E.


Pargiter, G. A.
Simmons, C. J.
Walker, G. H


Parker, J.
Skeffington, A. M.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Parkin, B. T.
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Paton, Mrs. F. (Ruskcliffe)
Skinnard, F. W.
Warbey, W. N.


Paton, J. (Norwich)
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Watkins, T. E.


Pearson, A.
Smith, H. N. (Nottingham, S.)
Watson, W. M.


Peart, Capt. T. F.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Piratin, P.
Solley, L. J.
Weitzman, D.


Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
Sorensen, R. W.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Soskice, Maj. Sir F
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Porter, E. (Warrington).
Sparks, J. A.
West, D. G.


Porter, G. (Leeds)
Stamford, W
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Price, M. Philips
Steele, T.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Pritt, D. N.
Stephen, C.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon W.


Proctor, W T.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Pryde, D. J.
Strachey, J.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A B


Pursey, Cmdr. H
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)
Wilkes, L.


Randall, H. E.
Stubbs, A. E.
Wilkins, W. A.


Ranger, J.
Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Rankin, J.
Swingler, S.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Reeves, J.
Sylvester, G. O.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Reid, T. (Swindon)
Symonds, A. L.
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Rhodes, H.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Richards, R.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Williamson, T.


Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Willis, E.


Robens, A
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Wise, Major F. J.


Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Woodburn, A.


Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Wyatt, W.


Royle, C.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Yates, V. F.


Sargood, R.
Thurtle, Ernest
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Scollan, T.
Tiffany, S.
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Scott-Elliot, W.
Timmons, J.



Shackleton, E. A. A
Titterington, M. F
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:




Mr. Snow and Mr. Popplewell.




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Fox, Sir G.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Amory, D. Heathcoat
Glyn, Sir R.
Nicholson, G.


Baldwin, A. E.
Houghton, S. G.
Ponsonby, Col. C. E.


Barlow, Sir J.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Taylor, C. S. (Eastbourne)


Beechman, N. A.
Lamoert, Hon. G.
Taylor, Vice-Adm. E. A. (P'dd'ton, S.)


Bennett Sir P.
Lipson, D. L.
Teeling, William


Bullock, Capt. M
McKie, J, H. (Galloway)
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


Carson, E.
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)



Cole, T. L.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


De la Bère, R.
Maude, J. C
Mr. Butcher and


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Mellor, Sir J.
Sir Alan Herbert.


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T

Further Amendments made:

In page 75, line 16, leave out "and." and insert:
(j) for repealing or amending any previous scheme in force with respect to the harbour or group of harbours or any part thereof; and.

In line 20, leave out from "amending," to "any," in line 22.

In page 76 line 2, leave out "or."

In line 2, after "any," insert "private dock undertaking."

In line 3, after first "undertaking," insert "or drydock undertaking."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Amendment proposed: In page 76, line 16, leave out from "the," to third "to," in line 17, and insert:
Minister may—

(a) specify a trade harbour or group of trade harbours, and
(b) direct the Commission."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Mr. Nicholson: On a point of Order. Is not this really two Amendments, Mr. Speaker, and should it not, therefore, be put in two parts?

Mr. Speaker: No, the principle of both parts has already been agreed to by the House.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made:

In page 76, line 19, leave out "any," and insert "the."

In line 19, leave out from "harbours," to end of line 21, and insert:
so specified, and the Commission shall give effect to any such directions.

In page 77, line 5, at end, insert:
drydock undertaking" means an undertaking or part of an undertaking the activities whereof consist wholly or mainly of the construction, improvement, maintenance or management of a dock the use whereof is substantially confined to the cleaning or repairing of ships."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 66.—(Holyhead Harbour.)

Amendments made:

In page 78, line 4, leave out "obligations."

In line 7, leave out "obligations."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 68.—(Advisory Committee as to coastal shipping.)

Amendment made: In page 78, line 33, at end, insert:
Provided that the number of members of the Committee representing the interests of persons engaged in coastal shipping shall not be less than the number of representatives of the Commission on the said Committee."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Amendment proposed: In line 38, leave out from first "the," to second "to," in line 39, and insert "Minister may give."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Sir A. Herbert: On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I know you are doing your best, but I cannot hear a word of the Amendments.

Mr. Speaker: I am sorry the hon. Member cannot hear the Amendments, but if he was following them on the Order Paper I think he would have understood.

Sir A. Herbert: On a point of Order. Fhe whole proceeding seems to be an absolute farce—

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member may say the whole proceeding is an absolute farce, but this is what the House has decided. I am carrying out a decision of the House and I have no option in the matter. One cannot criticise a decision which has been taken by a direct vote of the House. Therefore, I must carry on, and I cannot have the proceedings interrupted by that kind of point of Order.

Sir A. Herbert: Will you not allow me to finish my sentence, Mr. Speaker? I was not blaming you but if hon. Members opposite who have caused this situation—[Interruption.] May I finish my sentence?

Mr. Speaker: I think it would be better if hon. Members would not interrupt and would let me hear what the point of Order is.

Sir A. Herbert: I was going to say that if hon. Members opposite who have caused this situation would have the decency to be quiet, I might be able, with the Order Paper before me, to hear what the Amendments are.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendments made: In page 78, line 39, leave out "of."

In line 44, leave out from "interest," to end of line 45, and insert:
and the Commission shall give effect to any such directions."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 74.—(Contents of charges schemes.)

Amendment made: In page 82, leave out lines 5 and 6, and insert:
that is to say, charges which are to be adhered to save as otherwise provided by any provision of the scheme, and, in particular, by any provision of the scheme relating to the making of exceptional charges, special charges or agreed charges."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 75.—(Confirmation of charges schemes.)

Amendment made: In page 83, line 27, at end, insert:
(5) It shall be the duty of the Commission to give to the tribunal all such assistance as is necessary or as the tribunal may require for the purpose of deciding whether or not to confirm the scheme with or without alterations."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 76.—(Alteration of charges schemes.)

Amendments made: In page 84, line 2, leave out "modification," and insert "alteration."

In line 39, at end, insert:
(5) It shall be the duty of the Commission to give to the tribunal all such assistance as is necessary or as the tribunal may require for the purpose of deciding whether any, and if so what, order should be made with respect to the matter of the application. "—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 85.—(Provisions as to railway freight rebates.)

Amendment made: In page 88, line 44, leave out "obligations."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 87.—(British transport stock.)

Amendment made: In page 91, line 38, leave out from "securities," to "shall," and insert:
specified in Part III of the Fourth Schedule to this Act."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 90.—(General reserve.)

Amendments made: In page 92, line 41, leave out from first "the," to "with," in line 42, and insert "Minister may."

In line 43, leave out second "of," and insert "give to the Commission."

In page 93, line 1, leave out from second "thereof," to end of line 3, and insert:
And the Commission shall give effect to any such directions."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Division No. 166.]
AYES.
[10.12 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Champion, A. J.
Follick, M.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Chater, D.
Foot, M. M.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Chetwynd, G. R
Forman, J. C.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Clitherow, Dr. R
Foster, W. (Wigan)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Cobb, F. A.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton)


Alpass, J. H.
Cocks, F. S.
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Coldrick, W.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)


Attewell, H. C.
Collindridge, F.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Collins, V. J.
Gallacher, W.


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.
Colman, Miss G. M.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S


Bacon, Miss A.
Comyns, Dr. L.
Gibbins, J.


Baird, J.
Cook, T. F.
Gibson, C. W


Balfour, A.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Gilzean, A.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Gooch, E. G.


Barstow, P. G.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Goodrich, H. E.


Barton, C.
Corvedale, Viscount
Gordon-Walker, P. C.


Bartley, J. R.
Crossman, R. H. S.
Granville, E. (Eye)


Bechervaise, A. E.
Daggar, G.
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)


Belcher, J. W.
Daines, P.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)


Benson, C.
Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Grenfell, D. R.


Berry, H.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Grey, C. F.



Beswick, F.
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Grierson, E.


Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Griffiths, D. (Rather Valley)


Bing, G. H. C.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)


Binns, J.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)


Blackburn, A. R.
Deer, G.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden


Blenkinsop, A.
Delargy, Captain H. J.
Gunter, R. J.


Blyton, W. R.
Diamond, J.
Guy, W. H.


Boardman, H
Dabbie, W.

Haire, John E. (Wycombe)


Bottomley, A. G.
Dodds, N. N.
Hale, Leslie


Bowden, Flg.-Oflr. H. W.
Driberg, T. E. N.
Hall, W. G.


Bowles, F. C. (Nuneaton)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Durbin, E. F. M.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Dye, S.
Hardy, E. A.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Harrison, J.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville


Brown, George (Belper)
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
Haworth, J.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)


Buchanan, G.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)


Burden, T. W.
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Hewitson, Capt. M.


Burke, W. A.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Hicks, G.


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Ewart, R.
Hobson, C. R.


Callaghan, James
Fairhurst, F.
Holman, P.


Carmichael, James
Farthing, W. J.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Field, Captain W. J.
House, G.


Chamberlain, R. A.
Fletcher, E G. M. (Islington, E.)
Hoy, J.

Mr. Nicholson: On a point of Order. Nobody called "Aye" to the last Amendment.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member is sitting below the Gangway. I heard hon. Members call "Aye."

CLAUSE 93.—(General provisions as to terms and conditions of employment of staff, etc.)

Amendments made: In page 94, line 35, after "and," insert "the discussion of."

In page 95, line 17, leave out "discussion of matters," and insert "promotion and encouragement of measures."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Amendment proposed: In page 95, line 18, after second "and," insert "after discussion."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 337; Noes, 31.

Hubbard, T.
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Sorensen, R. W


Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Morley, R.
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Sparks, J. A.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Stamford, W.


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Mort, D. L
Steele, T.


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Moyle, A.
Stephen, C.


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Murray, J. D.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Irving, W. J.
Nally, W.
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Naylor, T. E.
Stubbs, A. E.


Janner, B.
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Jay, D. P. T.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Swingler, S.


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Sylvester, G. O


Jager, Dr. S. W. (St Pancras, S.E.)
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon P. J. (Derby)
Symonds, A. L.


John, W.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
O'Brien, T.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)



Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Oldfield, W. H
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Oliver, G. H.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Paget, R. T.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Keenan, W.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Kendall, W. D.
Palmer, A. M. F.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Key, C. W.
Pargiter, G. A
Thurtle, Ernest


King, E. M.
Parker, J.
Tiffany, S.


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.
Parkin, B. T.
Timmons, J


Kinley, J.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Titterington, M. [...]


Kirkwood, D.
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Tolley, L.


Lavers, S.
Pearl, Capt. T. F
Turner-Samuels, M


Lawson, Rt. Hon. J. J.
Piratin, P.
Ungoed-Thomas, L


Lee, F. (Hulme)
Platts-Mills. J. F. F.
Usborne, Henry


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Leonard, W.
Popplewell, E.
Viant, S. P.


Leslie, J. R.
Porter, E. (Warrington).
Wadsworth, G


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Porter, C. (Leeds)
Walkden, E.



Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Price, M. Philips
Walker, G. H.


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Pritt, D. N.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Lindgren, G. S.
Proctor, W. T.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Pryde, D. J.
Warbey, W. N.


Logan, D. G.
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Watkins, T. E.


Longden, F.
Randall, H. E.
Watson, W. M.


Lyne, A. W.
Ranger, J.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


McAdam, W.
Rankin, J.
Weitzman, D.


McEntee, V. La T
Reeves, J
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


McGhee, H. G.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Rhodes, H.
West, D. G.


Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Richards, R.
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J


McKinlay, A. S.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Maclean, N. (Govan)
Robens, A.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


McLeavy, F.
Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Wigg, Col. G. E.


McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Wilcock, Group-Gapt. C. A. B


Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Wilkes, L.


Mainwaring, W. H.
Royle, C.
Wilkins, W A.


Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Sargood, R.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.).
Scollan, T.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Scott-Elliot, W.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Marquand, H. A.
Shackleton, E. A A
Williams, Rt. Hon. T. (Don Valley)


Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Sharp, Granville
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Mathers, G.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Williamson, T.


Mayhew, C. P.
Shurmer, P.
Willis, E.


Medland, H. M.
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Wills, Mrs. E. A



Mellish, R. J.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Wise, Major F. J


Messer, F.
Skeffington, A. M.
Woodburn, A


Mikardo, Ian
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.
Wyatt, W.


Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.
Skinnard, F. W.
Yates, V. F.


Mitchison, Major G R.
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Monslow, W.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Montague, F.
Snow, Capt. J. W.



Moody, A S.
Solley, L. J.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES.




Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Mellor, Sir J.


Astor, Hon. M.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.


Bullock, Capt. M
Haughton, S. G.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Butcher, H. W.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Scott, Lord W.


Carson, E
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Spence, H. R.


Cole, T. L.
Lambert, Hon. G.
Teeling, William


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Langford-Holt, J.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


De la Bère, R.
Lipson, D. L.



Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Lucas, Maj. Sir J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Macpherson, MaJ. N. (Dumfries)
Mr. Godfrey Nicholson and


Duthie, W. S.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
 Sir Alan Herbert.


Fox, Sir G.
Marsden, Capt. A

CLAUSE 97.—(Special provisions as to railway and canal pension funds, etc.)

Amendment proposed: In page 99, line 3, to leave out "obligations and."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Mr. Jennings: On a point of Order. Is there no means of stopping this farcical procedure? [Interruption.]

Mr. Speaker: The House has declared by vote that this procedure shall be carried out, and one cannot challenge it now. I am simply obeying the orders of the House, and it is no good rising to points of Order.

Mr. Jennings: Further to that point of Order. I had not finished it before I was interrupted. May I finish it, because I feel that the House is being brought to a great deal of ridicule, and the Government as well? Is there no means of stopping it?

Mr. Speaker: That is not a point of Order.

Division No. 167.]
AYES.
[10.25 p.m


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Chater, D.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Chetwynd, G. R.
Follick, M.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Clitherow, Dr. R
Foot, M. M.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Cobb, F. A.
Forman, J. C.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Cocks, F. S.
Foster, W. (Wigan)


Alpass, J. H.
Coldrick, W.
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Collindridge, F.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Collins, V. J.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.
Comyns, Dr. L.
Gallacher, W.


Bacon, Miss A.
Cook, T. F.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.


Baird, J.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Gibbins, J.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Gibson. C. W


Barstow, P. G.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Gilzean, A.


Barton, C.
Crossman, R. H. S
Gooch, E. G.


Battley, J. R.
Daggar, G.
Goodrich, H. E.


Bechervaise, A. E
Daines, P.
Gordon-Walker, P. C.


Benson, G.
Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Granville, E. (Eye)


Berry, H.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)


Beswick, F.
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)


Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Grenfell, D. R.


Bing, G. H. C.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Grey, C. F.


Binns, J.
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Grierson, E.


Blenkinsop, A
Deer, G.
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)


Blyton, W. R
Delargy, H. J.
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)


Boardman, H.
Diamond, J.
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)


Bottomley, A. G.
Dobbie, W.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Dodds, N N.
Gunter, R. J.


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Driberg, T. E. N.
Guy, W. H.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Durbin, E. F. M.
Hale, Leslie


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Dye, S.
Hall, W. G.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R


Brown, George (Belper)
Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
Hardy, E. A.


Burden, T. W.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Harrison, J.


Burke, W. A.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville


Butler, H. W. (Hackney S.)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Haworth, J


Callaghan, James
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Henderson, A (Kingswinford)


Carmichael, James
Ewart, R.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Fairhurst, F.
Hewitson, Capt. M


Chamberlain, R. A.
Farthing, W. J.
Hicks, G.


Champion, A. J.
Field, Captain W. J.
Hobson, C. R

Question, "That the Amendment be made ", put, and agreed to.

Several Hon. Members: No.

Mr. Speaker: I warn hon. Members that this might be regarded as frivolous obstruction, since the House has passed this Amendment about seven times already. The "Ayes" have it. The next Amendment is in page 99, to leave out lines 26 to 42.

Mr. William Teeling: On a point of Order. Several hon. Members shouted "No."

Mr. Speaker: It was after I had collected the voices and passed on to the next Amendment.

Amendment made: In page 99, line 5, leave out "obligations and."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Amendment proposed: In page 99, to leave out lines 26 to 42.—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 322; Noes, 42.

Holman, P.
Monslow, W.
Solley, L. J.


Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)
Moody, A. S.
Sorensen, R. W.


House, G
Morgan, Dr. H. B
Soskice, Maj. Sir F.


Hoy, J.
Morley, R
Sparks, J. A.


Hubbard, T.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Stamford, W


Hudson, J. H (Ealing, W.)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Steele, T.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Mort, D. L.
Stephen, C.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton. W.)
Moyle, A.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Murray, J. D.
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Nally, W.
Stubbs, A. E.


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Irving, W. J.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Swingler, S.


Isaacs, Rt Hon. G A
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Sylvester, G. O.


Janner, B.
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Symonds, A. L.


Jay, D. P. T.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
O'Brien, T.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Jeger, Or. S W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Oldfield, W. H
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


John, W.
Oliver, G. H
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Paget, R. T.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Thomas, George (Gardiff)


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Palmer, A. M. F.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Pargiter, G. A
Thurtle, Ernest


Keenan, W.
Parker, J.
Tiffany, S.


Kendall, W. D
Parkin, B. T.
Titterington, M. F.


Key, C. W.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Tolley, L.


King, E. M
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Turner-Samuels, M.


Kinley, J
Peart, Capt. T. F
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Kirkwood, D
Piratin, P.
Usborne, Henry


Lavers, S.
Platts-Mills, J F. F.
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Lee, F. (Hulme
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Viant, S. P.


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Popplewell, E.
Wadsworth, G.


Leonard, W.
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Walkden, E.


Leslie, J. R
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Walker, G. H.


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Price, M. Philips
Wallace, C. D. (Chislehurst)


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Pritt, D. N.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Proctor, W. T.
Warbey, W. N.


Lindgren, G. S.
Pryde, D. J.
Watkins, T. E.


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Watson, W. M.


Logan, D. G.
Randall, H. E
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Longden, F
Ranger, J.
Weitzman, D.


Lyne, A. W.
Reeves, J.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


McAdam, W.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Wells, W T. (Walsall)


McEntee, V. La T.
Rhodes, H.
West, D. G.


McGhee, H. G.
Richards, R.
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


McKay, J (Wallsend)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Robens, A.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W


McKinlay, A. S
Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Wigg, Colonel C. E.


McLeavy, F.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Ross, Willlam (Kilmarnock)
Wilkes, L.


Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Royle, C.
Wilkins, W. A.


Mainwaring. W. H
Sargood, R.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Scollan, T.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Mann, Mrs. J.
Scott-Elliot, W.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Shackleton, E. A. A
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Sharp, Granville
Williamson, T


Marquand, H. A.
Shawcross, Rt. Hon. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Willis, E.


Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Shurmer, P.
Wills, Mrs E. A


Mathers, G.
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Wise, Major F J


Mayhew, C. P
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Woodburn, A


Medland, H. M
Skeffington, A. M.
Wyatt, W.


Mellish, R. J
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C
Yates, V. F.


Messer, F.
Skinnard, F. W.
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Mikardo, Ian
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)



Mitchison, Major G R
Snow, Capt. J. W.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:




Mr. Pearson and Mr. Simmons.




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Duthie, W. S
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)


Astor, Hon. M.
Fox, Sir G.
Marlowe, A. A. H.


Barlow, Sir J.
Fraser. Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Marsden, Capt. A.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H
Fraser, Sir I. (Lansdale)
Mellor, Sir J.


Bennett, Sir P
Glyn, Sir R.
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T


Bullock, Capt. M
Haughton, S. G.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Butcher, H. W
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Neven-Spence, Sir B.


Carson, E.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Nicholson, G.


Cole, T. L.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Cooper-Key, E. M.
Jennings, R.
Scott, Lord W.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Lambert, Hon. G.
Spence, H. R.


De la Bère, R.
Langford-Holt, J.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Lipson, D. L.



Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Lucas, Maj. Sir J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Drayson, G. B.
McKie, J. H. (Galloway)
Mr. Teeling and Sir W. Darling.

Amendment proposed: In page 100, to leave out lines 10 to 15.[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

Division No. 168.]
AYES.
[10.35 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
Lee, F. (Hulme)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Leonard, W.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Leslie, J. R.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Alpass, J. H.
Ewart, R.
Lewis, J. (Bolton)


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Fairhurst, F.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R.
Farthing, W. J.
Lindgren, G. S.


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B.
Field, Capt. W. J.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.


Bacon, Miss A.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Logan, D. G.


Baird, J.
Follick, M.
Longden, F.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Foot, M. M.
Lyne, A. W.


Barton, C.

Forman, J. C.
McAdam, W.


Battley, J. R.
Foster, W. (Wigan)
McEntee, V. La T.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
McGhee, H. G.


Benson, G.
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Berry, H.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)


Beswick, F.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.
McKinlay, A. S.


Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)
Gallacher, W.
Maclean, N. (Govan)


Bing, G. H. C.
Gibbins, J.
McLeavy, F.


Binns, J.
Gibson, C. W
McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.


Blackburn, A. R.
Gilzean, A.
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Blenkinsop, A.
Gooch, E. G.
Mainwaring, W. H


Blyton, W. R.
Goodrich, H. E.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.


Boardman, H.
Gordon-Walker, P. C
Mann, Mrs. J.


Bottomley, A. G.
Granville, E. (Eye)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Grey, C. F.
Marquand, H. A.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Grierson, E.
Marshall, F. (Brightside)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Mothers, G.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Medland, H. M


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Mellish, R. J.


Brown, George (Belper)
Gunter, R. J.
Messer, F.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Guy, W. H.
Mikardo, Ian


Buchanan, G.
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R


Burden, T. W.
Hale, Leslie
Mitchison, G. R.


Burke, W. A.
Hall, W. G.
Monslow, W.


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Moody, A. S.


Callaghan, James
Hardy, E. A.
Morgan, Dr. H. B


Carmichael, James
Harrison, J.
Morley, R.


Castle, Mrs. B A.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)


Chamberlain, R. A.
Haworth, J.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Champion, A. J.
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Mart, D. L.


Chetwynd, G. R.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Moyle, A.


Clitherow, Dr. R.
Hewitson, Captain M.
Murray, J. D.


Cobb, F. A.
Hicks, G.
Nally, W.


Cocks, F. S.
Hobson, C. R.
Neal, H. (Claycross)


Coldrick, W.
Holman, P.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Collins, V. J.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brantford)


Comyns, Dr. L.
House, G.
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P J. (Derby)


Cook, T. F.
Hoy, J.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Hubbard, T.
Oldfield, W. H


Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Oliver, G. H.


Corlett, Dr. J.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Paget, R. T.


Corvedale, Viscount
Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)
Paling, Rt, Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)


Crossman, R. H. S.
Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)


Daggar, G.
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Pargiter, G. A.


Daines, P
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Parker, J.


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Irving, W. J.
Parkin. B. T.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Janner, B.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Jay, D. P. T.
Paton, J. (Norwich)


Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Jeger, C. (Winchester)
Pearson, A.


Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Peart, Capt. T. F


Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Piratin, P.


Deer, G.
Jones, D. T. (Hartfepools)
Plaits-Mills, J. F. F.


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)


Delargy, H. J.
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Popplewell, E.


Diamond, J.
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Porter, E. (Warrington)


Dobbie, W.
Keenan, W.
Porter, G. (Leeds)


Dodds, N. N.
Kendall, W. D.
Price, M. Philips


Driberg, T. E. N.
Key, C. W.
Pritt, D. N.


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
King, E. M.
Proctor, W. T.


Durbin, E. F. M.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.
Pryde, D. J.


Dye, S.
Kinley, J.
Pursey, Cmdr. H


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Kirkwood, D
Randall, H. E


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Lavers, S.
Ranger, J.

The House divided: Ayes, 316; Noes, 35.

Rankin, J.
Stephen, C.
Watson, W. M.


Reeves, J.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Reid, T. (Swindon)
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)
Weitzman, D.


Rhodes, H.
Stubbs, A. E.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Richards, R.
Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Robens, A.
Swingler, S.
West. D G.


Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Sylvester, G. O.
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Robertson, J. J (Berwick)
Symonds, A. L.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Royle, C.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Sargood, R.
Taylor, R. J. (M[...]. peth)
Wigg, Colonel G. E.


Scollan, T.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Scott-Elliot, W
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Wilkes, L.


Shackleton, E. A. A
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Wilkins, W. A.


Sharp, Granville
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Shurmer, P.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Thurtle, Ernest
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Tiffany, S.
Williamson, T.


Simmons, C. J.
Titterington, M. F
Willis, E.


Skeffington, A. M.
Tolley, L.
Wills, Mrs. E. A


Skeffington-Lodge, T. C
Turner-Samuels, M.
Wise, Major F J.


Skinnard, F. W.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.
Woodburn, A


Smith, C. (Colchester)
Usborne, Henry
Wyatt, W.


Smith. S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Vernon, Maj. W. F.
Yates, V. F


Snow, Capt. J. W.
Viant, S. P.
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Solley, L. J.
Wadsworth, G
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Sorensen, R. W.
Walker, G. H.



Soskice, Maj. Sir F
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Sparks, J. A.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Mr. Collindridge and


Stamford, W.
Warbey, W. N.
 Mr. Hannan


Steele, T.
Watkins, T. E.





NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Marsden, Capt A.


Astor, Hon. M.
Dower, E. L. C. (Caithness)
Mellor, Sir J.


Barlow, Sir J.
Duthie, W. S
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir T.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H
Fox, Sir G.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Beechman, N. A.
Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)
Neven-Spence, Sir B.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Bullock, Capt. M.
Haughton, S. G.
Spence, H. R.


Butcher, H. W
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Teeling, Willlam


Carson, E.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Cole, T. L.
Lambert, Hon. G.



Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Langford-Holt, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Darling, Sir W. Y.
MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)
Major N. Macpherson and


De la Bère, R.
Marlowe, A A. H.
 Sir A. Herbert

CLAUSE 99.—(Compensation to officers and servants in connection with transfers.)

Amendment proposed: In page tor, line 15, at end, to insert:
loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights or." —[Mr. Barnes.]

Division No. 169.]
AYES
[10.47 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Boardman, H.
Coldrick, W.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Bottomley, A. G.
Collins, V. J.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.

Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Comyns, Dr. L.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Cook, T. F.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)


Alpass, J. H.
Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Corlett, Dr. J.


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Brook, D. (Halifax)
Corvedale, Viscount


Attlee, Rt. Hon. C. R
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Crossman, R. H. S.


Ayrton Gould, Mrs. B
Brown, George (Belper)
Daggar, G.


Bacon, Miss A.
Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Daines, P


Baird, J.
Burden, T W.
Davies, Edward (Burslem)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Burke, W. A.
Davies, Harold (Leek)


Barton, C.
Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)


Battley, J. R.
Callaghan, James
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)


Bechervaise, A. E
Carmichael, James
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)


Benson, G.
Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Deer, G.


Berry, H.
Chamberlain, R. A
de Freitas, Geoffrey


Beswick, F.
Champion, A. J.
Delargy, H. J.


Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vate)
Chater, D
Diamond, J.


Bing, G. H. C.
Chetwynd, G. R.
Dobbie, W.


Binns, J.
Clitherow, Dr. R.
Dodds, N. N.


Blackburn, A. R
Cobb, F. A.
Driberg, T. E. N.


Blyton, W. R.
Cocks, F. S.
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 290; Noes, 32.

Durbin, E. F. M.
Lindgren, G. S.
Sargood, R.


Dye, S.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Scollan, T.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Logan, D. G.
Scott-Elliot, W.


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Longden, F.
Shackleton, E. A. A


Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Lyne, A. W.
Sharp, Granville


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
McAdam, W.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


Evans, John (Ogmore)
McEntee, V. La T.
Shurmer, P.


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
McGhee, H. G.
Silverman, J. (Erdington)


Ewart, R.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Fairhurst, F.
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Simmons, C. J.


Farthing, W. J.
McKinlay, A. S.
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C


Field, Capt. W. J.
McLeavy, F.
Skinnard, F. W.


Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
McNeil, Rt. Hon. H
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Follick, M.
Mainwaring, W. H.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Forman, J. C.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Snow, Capt. J. W.



Mann, Mrs. J.
Solley, L. J.


Foster, W. (Wigan)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Sorensen, R. W.


Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Sparks, J. A


Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Stamford, W


Gaitskell, H. T. N.
Mathers, G.
Steele, T.


Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Medland, H. M.
Stephen, C.


Gibson, C. W
Mellish, R. J.
Stewart, Michael (Fulham, E.)


Gilzean, A.
Messer, F.
Stubbs, A. E.


Gooch, E. G.
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Goodrich, H. E.
Mitchison, G. R.
Swingler, S.


Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Monslow, W.
Sylvester, G. O


Granville, E. (Eye)
Moody, A. S.
Symonds, A. L.


Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Morgan, Dr. H. B
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Grey, C. F.
Morley, R.
Taylor, R. J. (M[...]peth)


Grierson, E.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Griffiths, D. (Rather Valley)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Moyle, A.
Thomas, I. O (Wrekin)


Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Murray, J. D.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Gunter, R. J.
Nally, W.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Guy, W. H.
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Thurtle, Ernest


Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Tiffany, S.


Hate, Leslie
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Titterington, M. F


Hall, W. G.
Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Tolley, L.


Hamilton, Lieut,-Col. R.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Turner-Samuels, M.


Harrison, J.
O'Brien, T.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
OldfieId, W. H.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Haworth, J.
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Viant, S. P.


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Wadsworth, G.


Hewitson, Captain M.
Palmer, A. M. F.
Walker, G. H.


Hicks, G.
Pargiter, G. A.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Hobson, C. R.
Parker, J.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Holman, P.
Parkin, B. T.
Watkins, T. E.


Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Watson, W. M.


House, G.
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Hoy, J.
Pearson, A.
Weitzman, D.


Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Peart, Capt. T. F
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Piratin, P.
Wells, W. T, (Walsall)


Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
West, D. G.


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Irving, W. J.
Popplewell, E.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Wigg, Colonel G. E.


Janner, B.
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Jay, D. P. T.
Price, M. Philips
Wilkes, L.




Wilkins, W. A.


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Pritt, D. N.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Proctor, W. T
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)
Pryde, D. J.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Randall, H. E.
Williamson, T.


Keenan, W.
Ranger, J.
Willis, E.


Kendall, W. D.
Rankin, J.
Wills, Mrs. E. A


King, E. M.
Reeves, J.
Wise, Major F. J.


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Woodburn, A.


Kinley, J.
Rhodes, H.
Wyatt, W.


Lavers, S.
Richards, R.
Yates, V. F.


Lee, F. (Hulme)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Robens, A.
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Leonard, W.
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)



Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Mr. Collindridge and Mr. Hennan.


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Royle, C.





NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Cole, T. L.
Fox, Sir G.


Astor, Hon. M.
Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)


Barlow, Sir J.
Darling, Sir W. Y.
Haughton, S. G.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
De la Bère, R.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Herbert, Sir A. P.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)


Carson, E.
Duthie, W. S.
Lambert, Hon. G.







Langford-Holt, J.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)
Wheatley, Col. M. J


Marlowe, A. A. H.
Nicholson, G.



Marsden. Capt. A.
Roberts, Mai. P. G. (Ecclesall)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Mellor, Sir J.
Spence, H. R.
Mr. Butcher and


Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir I.
Teeling, William
Major N. Macpherson.

Mr. De La Bère: Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on a point of Order. I want, if I may, to make it quite clear that in voting as I am against these Amendments—

Hon. Members: Order.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker (Mr. Hubert Beaumont): That is not a point of Order.

Mr. De La Bère: May I, on a point of Order, say that it is against the policy of the Government—

Division No. 170.]
AYES
[10.59 p.m


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Dobbie, W.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Dodds, N. N.
Irving, W. J.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Driberg, T. E. N.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon G. A


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Janner, B.


Allen, Scholeheld (Crewe)
Durbin, E. F. M.
Jay, D. P. T.


Alpass, J. H.
Dye, S.
Jeger, G. (Winchester)


Anderson, A. (Motherwell)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)


Ayrten Gould, Mrs. B
Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Jones, Rt. Hon. A. C. (Shipley)


Bacon, Miss A.
Edwards, N. (Caerphilly)
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)


Baird, J.
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)


Barton, C.
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)


Battley, J. R.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Keenan, W.


Bechervaise, A. E
Ewart, R.
Kendall, W. D.


Benson, G.
Fairhurst, F.
Key, C. W.


Berry, H.
Farthing, W. J.
King, E. M.


Beswick, F.
Field, Capt. W. J.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E.


Bevan, Rt. Hon A. (Ebbw Vale)
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Kirkwood, D.


Bing, G. H. C.
Follick, M.
Lavers, S.


Blenkinsop, A.
Forman, J. C.
Lee, F, (Hulme)


Blyton, W. R.
Foster, W. (Wigan)
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)


Boardman, H.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.
Leonard, W.


Bottomley, A. G.
Gallacher, W,
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S
Lewis, T. (Southampton)


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Gibson, C. W
Lindgren, G. S.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Gilzean, A.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Goodrich, H. E.
Longden, F.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Lyne, A. W


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Granville, E. (Eye)
McAdam, W.


Brown, George (Belper)
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
McEntee, V. La T.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Grey, C. F.
McGhee, H. G.


Burden, T. W.
Grierson, E.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Mackay, R, W. G. (Hull, N.W.)


Callaghan, James
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
McKinlay, A. S.


Carmichael, James
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
McLeavy, F.


Castle, Mrs. B. A
Guest, Dr. L. Haden
McNeil, Rt. Hon.[...].


Champion, A. J.
Gunter, R. J
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Chetwynd, G. R.
Guy. W H
Mainwaring, W. H.


Clitherow, Dr. R.
Haire, John E. (Wycombe)
Mallalieu, J. P. W.


Cobb, F. A.
Hale, Leslie
Mann, Mrs. J.


Cocks, F. S.
Hall, W. G
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)


Coldrick, W.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)


Collindridge, F.
Hardy, E. A.
Mathers, G.


Collins, V. J.
Harrison, J
Medland, H. M.


Comyns, Dr. L.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Mellish, R. J.


Cook, T. F.
Haworth, J.
Messer, F.


Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Mikardo, Ian


Corlett, Dr. J.
Hewitson, Captain M.
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R


Grossman, R. H. S
Hicks, G.
Mitchison, G. R.


Daggar, G.
Hobson, C. R.
Monslow, W.


Dairies, P.
Holman, P.
Moody, A. S.


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Morgan, Dr. H. B.


Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
House, G.
Morley, R.


Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Hoy, J.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)


Deer, G.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Moyle, A.


Delargy, H. J.
Hughes, H. D. (W'lverh'pton, W.)
Murray, J. D.


Diamond, J.
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)

Hon. Members: No.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of Order.

Amendment proposed: In page 101, line 16, to leave out "otherwise."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 280; Noes, 34.

Nally, W.
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Titterington, M. F


Neal, H. (Claycross)
Royle, C.
Tolley, L.


Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Sargood, R.
Turner-Samuels, M.


Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Scollan, T.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Noel-Baker, Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Shackleton, E. A. A
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Noel-Buxton, Lady
Sharp, Granville
Viant, S. P.


Oldfield, W. H.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Wadsworth, G.


Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Shurmer, P.
Walker, G. H.


Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Wallace, C. D. (Chislehurst)


Pargiter, G. A.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Parker, J.
Simmons, C. J.
Warbey, W. N.


Parkin, B. T.
Skeffington-Lodge, T. C.
Watson, W. M.


Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Skinnard, F. W.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Paton, J. (Norwich)
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Weitzman, D.


Pearson, A.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Peart, Capt. T. F
Snow, Capt. J. W.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Piratin, P.
Solley, L. J.
West, D. G.


Plates-Mills, J. F. F.
Sorensen, R. W.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Soskice, Maj. Sir [...]
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Popplewell, E.
Sparks, J. A.
Wigg, Colonel G. E.


Porter, E. (Warrington)
Stamford, W.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Porter, G. (Leeds)
Stephen, C.
Wilkes, L.


Price, M. Philips
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)
Wilkins, W. A.


Pritt, D. N.
Stubbs, A. E.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Proctor, W. T.
Summerskill, Dr. Edith
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Pryde, D. J.
Sylvester, G. O.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Pursey, Cmdr. H
Symonds, A. L.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Randall, H. E.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Williamson, T.


Rankin, J.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Willis, E.


Reeves, J.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Wills, Mrs. E. A


Reid, T. (Swindon)
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Wise, Major F. J


Richards, R.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Woodburn, A.


Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Young, Sir R. (Newton)


Robens, A.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Thurtle, Ernest



Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Tiffany, S.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:




Mr. M. Stewart and Mr. Hannan




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Marsden, Capt. A.


Astor, Hon. M.
Duthie, W. S.
Mellor, Sir J.


Barlow, Sir J.
Fox, Sir G.
Moore, Lt.-Col, Sir T.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Nicholson, G.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Haughton, S. G.
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Carson, E.
henderson, John (Cathcart)
Spence, H. R.


Cole, T. L.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Teeling, Willlam


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Lambert, Hon. G.
Thorneycroft, G. E. P. (Monmouth)


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Langford-Holt, J.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


De la Bère, R.
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)



Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W
Marlowe, A. A. H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:




Sir A. Herbert and Mr. Butcher.

Mr. Delargy: On a point of Order, Mr. Deputy-Speaker. Considering the total collapse of what was until tonight the official Opposition, could not representations be made

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of Order.

Division No. 171.]
AYES.
[11.10 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Berry, H.
Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Beswick, F
Brown, George (Belper)


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Bevan, Rt. Hon. A. (Ebbw Vale)
Brown, T. J. (Ince)


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Bing, G. H. C.
Burden, T. W.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Blackburn, A. R.
Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)


Alpass, J H.
Blenkinsop, A.
Carmichael, James


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Blyton, W. R.
Chamberlain, R. A.


Bacon, Miss A.
Boardman, H.
Champion, A. J.


Baird. J.
Bottomley, A. G.
Clitherow, Dr. R


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Cobb, F A.


Barton, C.
Bowles, F. C. (Nuneaton)
Cocks, F. S.


Battley, J. R.
Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Coldrick, W.


Bechervaise, A E
Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Collindridge, F.


Benson, G
Brook, D. (Halifax)
Collins, V. J.

Amendment proposed: In page 1O2, line 24, at end, to insert:
not being voting rights exercisable only in the event of a default in the payment of dividend."—[My. Barnes.]

Question put. "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes. 275; Noes, 33

Comyns, Dr. L.
Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Richards, R.


Cook, T. F.
Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M.


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Jones. D, T. (Hartlepools)
Robens, A.


Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Jonas, J. H. (Bolton)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)


Corlett, Dr. J.
Keenan, W.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)


Daggar, G.
Kendall, W. D.
Rose, William (Kilmarnock)



Haines, P.
Key, C. W.
Royle, C.


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
King, E. M.
Sargood, R.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Kirkwood, D.
Scollen, T.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Lavers, S.
Scott-Elliot, W.


Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Lee, F. (Hulme)
Shackleton, E. A. A


Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Lee, Miss J (Cannock)
Sharp, Granville


Deer, G.
Leonard, W.
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Shawcross, Rt. Hn. Sir H. (St. Helens)


Delargy, H. J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Shurmer, P.


Diamond, J.
Lindgren, G. S.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Dobbie, W.
Lipton, Lt.-Col, M.
Simmons, C. J.


Dodds, N. N.
Logan, D. G.
Skinnard, F. W.


Driberg, T. E. N.
Longden, F.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Lyne, A. W.
Snow, Capt. J. W.


Durbin, E. F. M.
McAdam, W.
Sorensen, R. W.


Dye, S.
McEntee, V. La T.
Soskice, Maj. Sir F


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
McGhee, H. G.
Sparks, J. A.


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Stamford, W.


Evans, John (Ogmore)
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Steele, T.


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
McKinlay, A. S.
Stephen, C.


Ewan, R.
Maclean, N. (Govan)
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth, N.)


Fairhurst, F.
McLeavy, F.
Stubbs, A. E.


Farthing, W. J.
McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Field, Capt. W. J.
Macpherson, T. (Romferd)
Sylvester, G. O.



Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)




Follick, M.
Mainwaring, W. H.
Symonds, A. L.


Forman, J. C.
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Foster, W. (Wigan)
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Marquand, H. A.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Geitskell, H. T. N
Mathers, G.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Gallacher, W.
Medland, H. M.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Ganley, Mrs. C. S
Mellish, R. J.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Gibson, C. W.
Messer, F.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)


Gilman, A.
Mikardo, Ian
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Gooch, E. G.
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.
Tiffany, S.


Goodrich, H. E.
Mitchison, G. R.
Timmons, J.


Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Monslow, W.
Titterington, M. F.


Granville, E. (Eye)
Moody, A. S.
Tolley, L.


Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G


Grey, C. F
Morley, R.
Turner-Samuels, M.


Grierson, E.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield C.)
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Griffiths, b. (Rother Valley)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Murray, J. D.
Viant, S. P.


Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Nally, W.
Wadsworth, G.


Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Walker, G. H


Gunter, R. J.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)


Guy, W. H.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Warbey, W. N.



Hale, Leslie
Noel-Baker. Rt. Hon. P. J. (Derby)
Watkins, T. E.


Hall, W. G.
Noel-Bux[...] lady
Watson, W. M.


Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Oldfield, W. H.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)


Hardy, E. A.
Oliver, G. H.
Weitzman, D.


Harrison, J.
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Haworth, J.
Palmer, A. M. F.
West, D. G.


Henderson, A. (Kingawinford)
Pargiter, G. A.
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Parker, J.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Hewitson, Capt. M.
Parkin, B. T.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Hicks, G.
Pearson, A
Wigs, Col. G. E.


Hobson, C R.
Peart, Capt. T. F.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.


Holman, P.
Platts-Mills, J. F. E.
Wilkes, L.


Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Wilkins, W. A.


House, G.
Popplewell, E.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Hoy, J.
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Hubbard, T.
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Pritt, D. N.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Proctor, W. T.
Williamson, T.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverh'pton, W.)
Pryde, D. J.
Willis, E.


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Pursey, Cmdr. H.
Wills, Mrs. E. A


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Randall, H. E.
Woodburn, A.


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Rankin, J.
Yates, V. F.


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Reeves, J.
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Janner, B.
Reid, T. (Swindon)



Jay, D. P. T.
Rhodes, H.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:




Mr. M. Stewart and Mr. Hannan.







NOES.


Barlow, Sir J.
Duthie, W. S.
Marsden, Capt. A.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Fox, Sir G.
Mellor, Sir J.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.Col. W
Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)
Moore, Lt.-Col. Sir[...]


Bullock, Capt. M
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Butcher, H. W.
Haughton, S. G.
Nicholson, C.


Cole, T. L.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Spence, H. R.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Teeling, Willlam


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Lambert, Hon. G.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


De la Bère, R.
Langford-Holt, J.



Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Macpherson, Maj, N. (Dumfries)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Group-Captain Aitken and




Mr. Astor.

11.15 p.m.

Mr. William Teeling: On a point of Order.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: On a point of Order.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: There cannot be two points of Order at the same time.

Mr. Teeling: On a point of Order. In view of the fact that a number of Members on both sides of the House never had an opportunity of being called into the Committee and never had a chance—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of Order.

Mr. S. Silverman: May I ask whether under the Standing Orders it is not in your discretion, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, if you come to the conclusion that a challenged vote was merely frivolous, to call upon those Members desiring to vote "No" to stand up in their places and be counted?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is a point of Order. It is certainly within the right of the Chair to exercise that discretion and the Chair will do so when it thinks desirable.

Mr. Teeling: Further to the first point of Order.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I ruled that the hon. Gentleman's point was not a point of Order, and, therefore, there cannot be anything further to it.

Sir Ian Fraser: Further to the point of Order raised by the hon. Member for Nelson and Colne (Mr. S. Silverman). May I ask whether it is in order for the hon. Member to accuse us of frivolous behaviour when we are in fact protesting against the Guillotine?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: That is not a point of Order. Points of Order should not be used as an opportunity for making speeches.

Mr. Butcher: May I ask whether you, Mr. DeputySpeaker, will indicate for our guidance what the position is? While the occupant of the Chair has complete discretion as to the manner in which hon. Members may register their votes, have not many of your predecessors, on many occasions, given opportunities to those who feel strongly on some matter, to register their protest in the Division Lobby? In view of the fact that Members in all parts of the House recognise the right of the Chair, and the desire of the Chair to protect the rights of the minority, may I on this point of Order respectfully ask you to enable us to exercise this customary right.

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: The Chair has the right, and accepts the responsibility, for deciding the manner in which the vote shall be taken.

Major Tufton Beamish: Major Tufton Beamish (Lewes): rose—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: We cannot continue in this way. I have allowed a considerable amount of latitude.

Major Beamish: May I ask to: your guidance, Mr. Deputy-Speaker, on whether there is any other way in which we can protest against this brazen dictatorship?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: Mr. Speaker has already answered that question several times, and the answer which he gave is the answer which I give now.

Mr. Teeling: With due respect. Mr. Deputy-Speaker, may I point out that you were not present earlier when this point was submitted to Mr. Speaker?

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: It is not a question of whether I was present or not, when that question was raised. But, as a matter of fact, I was present. I am carrying out the long-established procedure of the House.

Major Beamish: rose—

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I have already given the hon. and gallant Member an opportunity.

Major Beamish: On another point of Order.

Division No. 172.]
AYES.

[11.25 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Dye, S.
Key, C. W.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. G.
Kirkwood, D.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Lavers, S.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Lee, F. (Hulme)


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)


Bacon, Miss A.
Ewart, R.
Leonard, W.


Baird, J.
Fairhurst, F.
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Farthing, W. J.
Lewis, J. (Bolton)


Barton, C.
Field, Captain W. J.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)


Battley, J. R.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Follick, M.
Logan, D. G.


Benson, G.
Forman, J. C.
Longden, F.


Berry, H
Foster, W. (Wigan)
Lyne, A. W.


Beswick, F.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
McAdam, W.


Bing, G. H. C.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.
McGhee, H. G.


Blackburn, A. R.
Gallacher, W.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Blenkinsop, A.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)


Blyton, W. R.
Gibbins, J.
McLeavy, F.


Boardman, H
Gibson, C. W.
McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.


Bottomley, A. G.
Gilzean, A.
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Gooch, E. G.
Mainwaring, W. H.


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Goodrich, H. E.
Mallalieu, J. P. W.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Gordon-Walker, P. C
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Granville, E. (Eye)
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Marquand, H. A.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Grey, C. F.
Marshall, F. (Brightside)


Brown, George (Belper)
Grierson, E.
Mathers, G.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Griffiths, D. (Bother Valley)
Medland, H. M


Burden, T. W.
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Mellish, R. J.


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Messer, F.


Callaghan, James
Gunter, R. J.
Mikardo, Ian


Carmichael, James
Guy, W. H.
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Hale, Leslie
Mitchison, Major G. R.


Chamberlain, R. A.
Hall; W. G.
Monslow, W.


Champion, A. J.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Moody, A. S.


Chafer, D.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Morgan, Dr. H. B


Chetwynd, G. R.
Hardy, E. A.
Morley, R.


Clitherow, Dr. R
Harrison, J.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield. C.)


Cobb, F. A.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Cocks, F. S
Haworth, J.
Moyle, A.


Coldrick, W.
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Murray, J. D


Collindridge, F.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Nally, W.


Collins, V. J.
Holman, P.
Neal, H. (Claycross)


Comyns, Dr. L.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Cook, T. F.
House, G.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F E. (Brantford)


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Hoy, J.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Corbel, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W.)
Hubbard, T.
O'Brien, T.


Corlett, Dr. J.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Oldfield, W. H


Crossman, R. H. S.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Oliver, G. H.


Dagger, G.
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Paling, Rt. Hon. Wilfred (Wentworth)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Paling, Will T, (Dewsbury)


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Pargiter, G. A.


Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Irving, W. J.
Parker, J.


Deer, G.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Janner, B.
Pearson, A.


Delargy, Captain H. J.
Jay, D. P. T.
Peart, Capt. T. F


Diamond, J.
Jager, G. (Winchester)
Piratin, P.


Debbie, W.
Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras. S.E.)
Platts-Mills. J. F. F


Dodds, N. N.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)


Driberg, T. E. N.
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Popplewell, E.


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Keenan, W.
Porter, E. (Warrington)


Durbin, E. F. M.
Kendall, W. D.
Porter, G. (Leeds)

Mr. Deputy-Speaker: I cannot take a point of Order when I am putting the Question.

CLAUSE 100.—(Compensation to officers and servants in other cases.)

Amendment proposed: In page 102, line 34, after "or," to insert;
loss or diminution of emoluments or pension rights or."—-[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 268; Noes, 33.

Pritt, D. N.
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Walker, G. H.


Proctor, W. T.
Snow, Capt. J. W.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Pryde, D. J.
Solley, L. J.
Warbey, W. N.



Pursey, Cmdr. H
Sorensen, R. W.
Watkins, T. E.


Randall, H. E
Stamford, W
Watson, W. M.


Rankin, J.
Steele, T.
Webb, M. (Bradford, C.)



Reeves, J.
Stephen, C.
Weitzman, D.


Reid, T. (Swindon)
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Richards, R.
Stubbs, A. E.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Summerskill, Dr. Edith
West, D. G.


Robens, A.
Sylvester, G. O.
Westwood, Rt. Hon. J.


Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Symonds, A. L.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Ross, Sir R.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Royle, C.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Wilkes, L.


Sargood, R
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Wilkins, W. A.


Scollan, T.
Thomson, Rt. Hn. G. R. (Ed'b'gh, E.)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Scott-Elliot, W.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Sharp, Granville
Tiffany, S.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Timmons, J.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Shurmer, P.
Titterington, M. F
Williamson, T.


Silkin, Rt Hon. L.
Tolley, L.
Willis, E.


Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Turner-Samuels, M.
Woodburn, A.


Simmons, C. J.
Ungood-Thomas, L.
Yates, V. F.


Skeffington, A. M.
Vernon, Maj. W. F
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Skinnard, F. W.
Viant, S. P.



Smith, C. (Colchester)
Wadsworth, G.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:




Mr. J. Henderson and Mr. Daines




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Langford-Holt, J.


Astor, Hon. M.
Duthie, W. S
Macpherson, Maj, N. (Dumfries)


Barlow, Sir J.
Fox, Sir G.
Marlowe, A, A. H.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Marsden, Capt. A


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Mellor, Sir J.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Gage, C.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Butcher, H. W.
Haughton, S. G.
Roberts, Maj P. G. (Ecclesall)


Carson, E.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Spence, H. R.


Cole, T. L.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)



De la Bère, R.
Jennings, R.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Lambert, Hon. G
Sir W. Darling and Mr. Teeling.

Amendment proposed: In page 102, line 35, to leave out "otherwise."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Division No. 173.]
AYES.
11.35p.m


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Champion, A. J.
Ewart, R.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Chetwynd, G. R.
Fairhurst, F.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Clitherow, Dr. R
Farthing, W. J.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Cocks, F. S.
Field, Captain W. J.


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Collindridge, F.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)


Bacon, Miss A.
Collins, V. J.
Forman, J. C.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Comyns, Dr. L.
Foster, W. (Wigan)


Barton, C.
Cook, T. F.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)


Battley, J. R.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N W)
Gallacher, W.


Benson, G.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S


Berry, H.
Grossman, R. H. S.
Gibbins, J.


Beswick, F.
Daggar, G.
Gibson, C. W.


Bing, G. H. C.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Gilzean, A.


Blenkinsop, A.
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Goodrich, H. E.


Blyton, W. R.
Davies, R. J. (Westhoughton)
Gordon-Walker, P. C.


Boardman. H
Davies, S. O. (Merthyr)
Granville, E. (Eye)


Bottomley, A. G.
Deer, G.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
de Freitas, Geoffrey
Grey, C. F.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Delargy, Captain H. J
Grierson, E.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Diamond, J.
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Debbie, W
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Dodds, N. N.
Gunter, R. J.


Brown, George (Belper)
Driberg, T. E. N.
Guy, W. H.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Hale, Leslie


Burden, T. W.
Durbin, E. F. M.
Hall, W. G.


Burke, W. A.
Dye, S.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)


Callaghan, James
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Hardy, E. A.


Carmichael, James
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Harrison, J.

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 262; Noes, 36.

Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Monslow, W.
Sparks, J. A.


Haworth, J.
Moody, A. S.
Stamford, W



Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Steele, T.


Hewitson, Capt. M.
Morley, R.
Stephen, C.


Holman, P.
Morris, Lt.-Cot. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


House, G.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Hoy, J.
Moyle, A.
Stubbs, A. E.


Hubbard, T.
Murray, J. D
Summerskill, Dr. Edith


Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Nally, W.
Sylvester, G. O.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Symonds, A. L.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Irving, W. J.
O'Brien, T.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A.
Oldfield, W. H.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Janner, B.
Paling, Will T, (Dewsbury)
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Jay, D. P. T.
Palmer, A. M. F.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Pargiter, G. A.
Thurtle, Ernest


Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Parker, J.
Tiffany, S.


Jonas, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Timmons, J.


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Titterington, M. F.


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Pearson, A.
Tolley, L.


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Peart, Capt. T. F.
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G


Keenan, W.
Piratin, P.
Turner-Samuels, M.


Kendall, W. D.
Platts-Mills. J. F. F.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


King, E. M.
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Kirkwood, D.
Popplewell, E.
Wadsworth, G.


Lavers, S.
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Walkden, E.


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Walker, G. H.


Leonard, W.
Pritt, D. N.
Wallace, H- W. (Walthamstow, E)


Lewis, A. W J. (Upton)
Proctor, W. T.
Warbey, W. N.


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Pryde, D. J.
Watkins, T. E.


Lewis, T. (Southampton)
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Watson, W. M.


Lindgren, G. S.
Randall, H. E
Weitzman, D.


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Ranger, J.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Logan, D. G.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Longden, F.
Rhodes, H.
West, D. G.


Lyne, A. W.
Richards, R.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)



McGhee, H. G.
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Robens, A.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.


Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Wilkes, L.


McKinlay, A. S.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Wilkins, W. A.


MaLeavy, F.
Ross, Willlam (Kilmarnock)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Royle, C.
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Sargood, R.
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Mainwaring, W. H.
Scott-Elliot, W.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Sharp, Granville
Williamson, T.


Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.).
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Willis, E.


Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Shurmer, P.
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Marshall, F. (Brightside)
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Wise, Major F. J


Mathers, G.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Woodburn, A


Mayhew, C. P.
Simmons, C. J.
Yates, V. F.


Medland, H. M.
Skeffington, A. M.
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Mellish, R. J.
Skinnard, F. W.



Messer, F.
Smith, C. (Colchester)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES


Mikardo, Ian
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Mr. J. Henderson and


Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.
Snow, Capt. J. W.
Mr. Daines.


Mitchison, Major G. R.
Sorensen, R. W.





NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)


Astor, Hon. M.
Duthie, W. S
Marlowe, A. A. H.



Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Fox, Sir G.
Marsden, Capt. A.


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W.
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Mellor, Sir J.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lansdale)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Butcher, H. W.
Haughton, S. G.
Nicholson, G.


Carson, E.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Cole, T. L.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Spence, H. R.


Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Vane, W. M. F.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Jennings, R.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Lambert, Hon. G.



De la Bère, R.
Langford-Holt, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W
MacDonald, Sir M. (Inverness)
Sir J. Barlow and Mr. Teeling

CLAUSE 103.—(Procedure and enforcement of orders of arbitration tribunal.)

Amendment proposed: In page 105, line 12, to leave out "required."—[Mr. Barnes.]

11.45 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher: On a point of Order. Has it not been generally recognised that the procedure of this House was that at least 40 should constitute a Lobby, and if the Opposition can-


not get 40, is it not usual for hon. Members who object to have to rise in their places?

Mr. Speaker: There is the right of dividing, and it is up to me to decide whether I think there are too few on one side. We must always have respect for the rights of minorities.

Mr. Sydney Silverman: Further to that point of Order. Do I understand from what you have said that the criterion which the Chair applies in deciding whether to apply that procedure or not,

Division No. 174.]
AYES.
[11.50 p.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Kendall, W. D.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
King, E. M.


Alexander, Rt. Hon. A. V.
Ewart, R.
Kirkwood, D


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Fairhurst, F.
Lavers, S.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Farthing, W. J.
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)


Anderson, F. (Whitehaven)
Field, Captain W. J.
Leonard, W.


Bacon, Miss A
Fletcher, E. C. M. (Islington, E.)
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Baird, J.
Follick, M.
Lewis, J. (Bolton)


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Forman, J. C.
Lewis, T. (Southampton)


Barton, C.
Foster, W. (Wigan)
Lindgren,. G. S.


Bartley, J. R.
Freeman, Maj. J. (Watford)
Lipson, D. L.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Logan, D. G.


Benson, G.
Gaitskell, H. T. N.
Longden, F


Berry, H.
Gallacher, W.
Lyne, A. W.


Bing, C. H. C.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
McGhee, H. G.


Blenkinsop, A.
Gibbins, J.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Blyton, W. R.
Gibson, C. W.
Mackay, R. W. C. (Hull, N.W.)


Boardman, H
Gilzean, A.
McKinlay, A. S.


Bottomley, A. C.
Goodrich, H. E.
McLeavy, F.


Bowden, Flg.-Offr. H. W.
Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Granville, E. (Eye)
Mainwaring. W. H.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)
Mallalieu, J. P. W.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Grey, C. F.
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.).


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Grierson, E.
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)


Brown, George (Belper)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Marquand, H. A.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J (Llanelly)
Mothers, G.


Burden, T. W.
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Medland, H. M.


Burke, W. A.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Mellish, R. J.



Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Gunter, R. J.
Messer, F.


Callaghan, James
Guy, W. H.
Mikardo, Ian


Carmichael, James
Hale, Leslie
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Hall, W. G.
Mitchison, Major G. R.


Champion, A. J.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.
Moody, A. S.


Chetwynd, G. R.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Morgan, Dr. H. B


Clitherow, Dr. R.
Hardy, E. A.
Morley, R.


Cocks, F. S
Harrison, J.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)


Coldrick, W.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Collindridge, F.
Haworth, J.
Moyle, A.


Collins, V. J.
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Murray, J. D


Comyns, Dr. L.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Nally, W.


Cook, T. F.
Hobson, C. R.
Neal, H. (Claycross)


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Holman, P.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Corbel, Mrs. F. K (Camb'well, N.W)
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)


Corlett, Dr. J.
House, G.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Daggar, G.
Hoy, J.
Oldfield, W. H


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Hubbard, T.
Oliver, G. H.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Palmer, A. M. F.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W)
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.]
Pargiter, G. A


Deer, G.
Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Parker, J.


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Parkin, B, T.


Delargy, Captain H. J
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)


Diamond, J.
Irving, W. J.
Paton, J (Norwich)


Dobbie, W.
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Pearson, A.


Dodds, N. N.
Janner B.
Peart, Capt. T. F


Driberg, T. E. N.
Jay, D. P. T.
Piratin, P.


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Jager, C. (Winchester)
Plaits-Mills. J. F. F.


Durbin, E. F. M.
Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)


Dye, S
Jones, D. T. (Hartlspools)
Popplewell, E.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Porter, E. (Warrington)


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Porter, C. (Leeds)


Edwards. W. J. (Whitechapel)
Keenan, W.
Pritt, D. N.

is merely one of numbers, or has the good sense of the situation anything to do with it?

Major Beamish: What good sense? Nonsense?

Mr. Speaker: It is a matter for the Chair. How the Chair may decide is not a matter for the House at all.

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 269; Noes, 34.

Proctor, W. T
Sparks, J. A.
Warbey, W. N.


Pryde, D. J.
Stamford, W
Watkins, T. E.


Pursey, Cmdr H
Steele, T.
Watson, W. M


Randall, H. E
Stephen, C.
Weitzman, D.


Ranger, J.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Reid, T. (Swindon)
Strauss, C. R. (Lambeth)
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Richards, R.
Stubbs, A. E.
West, D. G.


Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Swingler, S.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Robens, A
Sylvester, G.[...]
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Symonds, A. L.
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Wilkes, L.


Royle, C.
Taylor, Dr. S (Barnet)
Wilkins, W. A.


Sargood, R
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Scollan, T.
Thomas, George (Gardiff)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Scott-Elliot, W.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Shackleton, E. A. A
Thurtle, Ernest
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Sharp, Granville
Tiffany, S.
Williamson, T.


Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Timmons, J
Willis, E.


Shurmer, P.
Titterington, M. F
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Tolley, L.
Wise, Major F. J


Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Tomlinson, Rt. Hon. G
Woodburn, A.


Simmons, C. J.
Turner-Samuels, M.
Wyatt, W.


Skeffington, A. M.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.
Yates, V. F.


Skinnard, F. W.
Vernon, Maj. W. F



Smith, C. (Colchester)
Wadsworth, G.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES


Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Walkden, E.
Mr. J. Henderson and


Snow, Capt. J. W
Walker, G. H.
Mr. Daines.


Sorensen. R. W
Wallace, H. W. (Waltnamstow, E.)





NOES:


Aitken, Hon. Max
Duthie, W. S
Marlowe, A. A. H


Astor, Hon. M.
Fox, Sir G.
Marsden, Capt. A.


Barlow, Sir J.
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Mellor, Sir J.


Beamish, Maj. T. V H
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Haughton, S. G.
Nicholson, C.


Bullock, Capt. M
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Roberts, Maj. P. C. (Ecclesall)


Carson, E.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Spence, H. R.


Cole, T. L.
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Teeling, William


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col O E
Jennings, R.
Vane, W. M. F.


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Lambert, Hon. G
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Langford-Holt, J.



Dower E L. G. (Caithness)
Macpherson, Maj. N (Dumfries)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:




Mr. Butcher and Mr. De la Bere.

CLAUSE 111.—(Right of pre-emption for local authorities in certain cases.)

Amendment proposed: In page 1O9, line 45, to leave out "an urban or rural," and to insert "a county."

12 m.

Sir J. Mellor: On a point of Order. May I with great respect, Mr. Speaker, ask you if you would be so good as to put the Question on this Amendment in what I would suggest is the more customary form, namely, "That the words proposed to be left out stand part of the Clause," followed by the further Question, "That those words be there inserted?"

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member has raised a substantial point, but as a matter of fact, when the Guillotine falls, the Amendment is not put in the usual way. It is put in the form "That the Amendment be made." For instance, had the Amendment which the right hon. and learned Gentleman the Member for West Derby (Sir D. Maxwell Fyfe) was dis-

cussing at the time the Guillotine fell been put, I should have put it in the usual way, but after that, every Amendment would have been put merely in the form, "That the Amendment be made." That is the procedure under the Guillotine, and therefore the way I am putting the Questions is the correct one.

Amendment agreed to.

CLAUSE 113.—(Special provisions as to River Lee.)

Amendment proposed: In page 110, line 27, to leave out "obligations."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Mr. Speaker: This Amendment and the two which follow are consequential on Amendments made earlier, and I think it would be for the convenience of the House if we took them together. With the permission of the House I will put them together.

Amendment agreed to.

Consequential Amendments made.

CLAUSE 120.—(Interpretation.)

Amendment proposed: In page 113, line 28, at end, to insert:
' alteration,' in relation to a charges scheme under Part V of this Act, includes an addition, and alter' shall be construed accordingly."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House proceeded to a Division.

Squadron-Leader Sir Gifford Fox: On a point of Order.

Mr. Speaker: I always rule that a handkerchief or Order Paper on top of an hon. Member's head is not a covering.

Division No. 175.]
AYES.
[12.00 m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Keenan, W.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Ewart, R.
Kendall, W. D.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Fairhurst, F.
King, E. M.


Bacon, Miss A.
Farthing, W. J.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E


Baird, J.
Field, Captain W. J.
Kirkwood, D.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Lavers, S


Barton, C.
Follick, M
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)


Battley, J. R.
Forman, J. C.
Leonard, W.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Foster, W. (Wigan)
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Benson, G.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
Lindgren, G. S.


Berry, H.
Gallacher, W.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M


Beswick, F.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Logan, D. G.


Bing, G. H. C
Gibbins, J.
Longden, F.


Blenkinsop, A.
Gibson, C. W.
Lyne, A. W.


Blyton, W. R.
Gilzean, A.
McGhee, H. G.


Boardman, H
Gordon-Walker, P. C.
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Bottomley, A. G.
Granville, E. (Eye)
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Greenwood, A W. J. (Heywood)
McKinlay, A. S


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Grey, C. F.
McLeavy, F.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Grierson, E.
McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Brown, George (Belper)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Mainwaring. W. H.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.).


Burke, W. A.
Guest, Dr. L. Haden
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Gunter, R. J.
Mathers, G.


Carmichael, James
Guy, W. H.
Medland, H. M.


Champion. A. J.
Hale, Leslie
Mellish, R. J.


Chetwynd, G. R.
Hall, W. G.
Messer, F.


Clitherow, Dr. R
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Mikardo, Ian


Cobb, F. A.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.


Cocks, F. S.
Hardy, E. A.
Mitchison, Major G. R.


Coldrick, W.
Harrison, J.
Monslow, W.


Collindridge, F.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Moody, A. S.


Collins, V. J.
Haworth, J.
Morgan, Dr. H. B


Comyns, Dr. L.
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)
Morley. R.


Cook, T. F.
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Moyle, A


Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N.W)
Hobson, C. R.
Murray, J. D.


Corlett, Dr. J
Holman, P.
Nally, W.


Daggar, G.
Holmes, C. Hemsworth
Neal, H. (Claycross)


Daines, P.
House, G.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Hoy, J.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brantford)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Hubbard, T.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Oliver, G. H.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)


Deer, G.
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Palmer, A. M. F.


de Freitas, Geoffrey
Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Pargiter, G. A.


Delargy, Captain H. J
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Parker, J.


Diamond, J.
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Parkin, B. T.


Dobbie, W.
Irving, W. J.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)


Dodds. N. N
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Paton, J. (Norwich)


Driberg, T. E. N.
Janner. B.
Pearson, A.


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Jay, D. P. T.
Peart, Capt. T. F


Durbin, E. F. M.
Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Piratin, P.


Dye, S
Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Platts-Mills. J. F. F.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield).


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Porter, E, (Warrington)


Edwards. W. J. (Whitechapel)
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Porter, C. (Leeds)

Sir G. Fox: (seated and covered): On a point of Order, Mr. Speaker. I should like to have your advice on whether it is in Order for Members supporting the Government to sing the "Red Flag" in the Lobby. Not only are they doing it now, but they did so on a previous occasion.

Mr. Speaker: I have no knowledge of what happens in the Lobby. Those in one Lobby may sing one song, and those in the other Lobby may sing another. That is outside my jurisdiction.

The House divided: Ayes, 255; Noes, 34.

Pritt, D. N.
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Warbey, W. N.


Proctor, W. T
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Watkins, T. E.


Pryde, D. J.
Sorensen, R. W
Watson, W. M.


Pursey, Cmdr. H
Sparks, J. A.
Weitzman, D.


Randall, H. E.
Stamford, W
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Ranger, J.
Steele, T.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Reid, T. (Swindon)
Stephen, C.
West, D. G.


Rhodes, H.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Richards, R.
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Stubbs, A. E
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Robens, A.
Swingler, S.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Sylvester, G. D
Wilkes, L.


Robertson J. J. (Berwick)
Symonds, A. L.
Wilkins, W. A.


Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Royle, C.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Sargood, R.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Scollan, T.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Scott-Elliot, W.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Williamson, T


Shackleton, E. A. A
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Willis, E.


Sharp, Granville
Thorneycroft Harry (Clayton)
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Thurtle, Ernest
Wise, Major F. J.


Shurmer, P.
Timmons, J.
Woodburn, A.


Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Ungoed-Thomas, L.
Yates, V. F


Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Vernon, Maj. W. F
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Simmons, C. J.
Wadsworth, G.



Skeffington, A. M
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:



Skinnard, F. W.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)
Mr. Snow and Mr. Popplewell




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max.
Dower, E. L. G. (Caithness)
Marsden, Capt. A


Astor, Hon. M.
Duthie, W. S.
Mellor, Sir J.


Beamish, Maj T. V. H.
Fox, Sir G.
Morrison, Maj J. G. (Salisbury)


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Nicholson, G.


Bullock, Capt. M
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Butcher, H. W.
Haughton, S. G.
Scott, Lord W.


Carson, E.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Spence, H. R.


Cole, T. L.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Teeling, William


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Vane, W. M. F.


Darling, Sir W. Y.
Langford-Holt, J.
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


De la Bère, R.
Macpherson, Maj. N (Dumfries)



Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W
Marlowe, A. A. H.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:




Sir J. Barlow and Mr. Lambert

Amendment proposed: In page 113, line 42, after first "or," to insert "of."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Division No. 176.]
AYES
[12.9 a.m


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Clitherow, Dr R
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Cobb, F. A
Ewart, R.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Cocks, F. S.
Fairhurst, F.


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Coldrick, W
Field, Captain W. J.


Bacon, Miss A
Collindridge, F
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)


Baird, J.
Collins, V. J
Follick, M.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Comyns, Dr. L.
Forman, J. C.


Barton, C.
Cook. T. F.
Foster, W. (Wigan)


Batlley, J. R.
Cooper, Wing-Comdr. G.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton)


Bechervaise, A. E
Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N W.)
Freeman, Peter (Newport)


Berry, H.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Gallacher, W.


Beswick, F.
Crossman, R. H. S.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S


Bing, G. H. C.
Daggar, G.
Gibson, C. W


Blyton, W. R.
Daines, P.
Gilzean, A.


Boardman. H
Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Gordon-Walker, P. C


Bottomley, A. G.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Greenwood, A W J (Heywood


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Grey, C. F


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Grierson, E.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Deer, G.
Griffiths, D (Rother Valley)


Brook, D. (Halifax)
de Freitas, Geoffrey
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J (Llanelly)


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Delargy, Captain H. J
Griffiths, W. D (Moss Side)


Brown, George (Belper)
Diamond, J.
Gunter, R. J


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Dodds, N. N.
Guy, W. H


Burden, T. W.
Driberg, T. E. N.
Hate, Leslie


Burke, W. A.
Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Hall, W. G.


Butler, H W. (Hackney, S.)
Durbin, E. F. M.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R


Callaghan, James
Dye, S
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)


Carmichael, James
Edo, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Hardy, E. A.



Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Harrison, J.


Champion A. J.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Hastings, Dr. Somerville


Chetwynd, G. R.
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Haworth, J.

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 256; Noes, 35.

Henderson, A (Kingswinford)
Mitchison, Major G. R.
Simmons, C. J.


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Monslow, W.
Skeffington, A. M.


Hobson, C. R.
Morgan, Dr. H. B
Skinnard, F. W.


Holman, P.
Morley, R.
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield C.)
Smith. S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


House, G
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)
Sorensen, R. W.


Hoy, J.
Moyle, A.
Sparks, J. A.


Hubbard, T
Murray, J. D
Stamford, W



Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Nally, W.
Steele, T.


Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Stephen, C.


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F E (Brentford)
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Stubbs, A. E.


Irving, W. J.
Oliver, G. H.
Swingler, S.


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G A
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Sylvester, G. O


Janner, B.
Palmer, A. M. F.
Symonds, A. L.


Jay, D. P. T.
Pargiter, G. A.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Jeger, C. (Winchester)
Parker, J.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S E.)
Parkin, B, T.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Thomas, I. O (Wrekin)


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Pearson, A.
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Peart, Capt. T. F
Thurtle, Ernest


Keenan, W.
Piratin, P.
Tolley, L.


Kendall, W. D.
Platts-Mills. J. F. F.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


King, E. M.
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)
Vernon, Maj. W. F


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr [...]
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Wadsworth, G.


Kirkwood, D
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Wallace, C. D. (Chislehurst)


Lavers, S.
Price, M. Philips
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Pritt, D. N.
Warbey, W. N


Leonard, W.
Proctor, W. T
Watkins, T. E.


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Pryde, D. J.
Watson, W. M.


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Weitzman, D.


Lindgren,. G. S.
Randall, H. E
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Ranger, J.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


Langden, F.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
West, D. G.


Lyne, A. W.
Rhodes, H.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


McGhee, H. G.
Richards, R.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


McKay, J (Wallsend)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Robens, A.
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


McKinlay, A. S.
Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
Wilkes, L.


McLeavy, F.
Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Wilkins, W. A.


McNeil, Rt. Hon. H.
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Mainwaring. W. H
Royle, C.
Williams. J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Mallalieu, J. P. W.
Sargood, R.

Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Scollan. T
Williamson, T.


Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Scott-Elliot, W.
Willis, E.


Mathers, G.
Shackleton, E. A A
Wills, Mrs E. A


Mayhew, C. P.
Sharp, Granville
Wise, Major F. J


Medland, H. M
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Woodburn, A.


Mellish, R. J
Shurmer, P.
Yates,.V. F.


Messer, F.
Silkin, Rt. Hon. L.
Younger. Hon. Kenneth


Mikardo, Ian
Silverman, J. (Erdington)




Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:




Mr. Snow and Mr. Popplewe




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)


Astor, Hon. M
Dower, E. L. C. (Caithness)
Marsden, Capt. A.


Barlow, Sir J.
Drayson, G. B.
Mellor, Sir J.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Duthie, W. S.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Fox, Sir G.
Nicholson, G.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Roberts, Maj. P. G. (Ecclesall)


Butcher, H. W.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Spence, H. R.


Carson, E
Haughton, S. G.
Vane, W. M. F.


Cole, T. L
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Wheatley, Colonel M J


Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)
Herbert, Sir A. P.



Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O E
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwick)
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Darling, Sir W. Y
Lambert, Hon. G
Mr. Marlowe and Mr. Teeling


De la Bère, R
Langford-Holt, J

Amendment proposed: In page 114, to leave out lines r and 2.—[Mr. Barnes.]

Question put, "That, the Amendment be made."

Division No. 177.]
AYES.
[12.16 a.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Bacon, Miss A
Barton, C.


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Baird, J.
Battley, J R.

The House divided: Ayes, 245; Noes, 35.

Bechervaise, A. E.
Hobson, C. R
Proctor, W. T.


Berry, H.
Holman, P.
Pursey, Cmdr. H


Berwick, F.
Holmes, H. E (Hemsworth)
Randall, H. E.


Bing, G. H. C.
House, G.
Ranger, J.


Blyton, W. R.
Hoy, J.
Rhodes, H.


Bottomley, A. G.
Hubbard, T.
Richards, R.


Bowles, F. G (Nuneaton)
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Robens, A.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)


Brown, George (Belper)
Irving, W. J.
Royle, C.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Sargood, R.


Burden, T W.
Janner, B
Scollan, T.



Burke, W. A
Jay, D. P. T.
Scott-Elliot, W.


Butler, H. W. (Hackney, S.)
Jager, G. (Winchester)
Shackleton, E. A A.


Callaghan, James
Jeger, Dr. S W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Sharp, Granville


Carmichael, James
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Shurmer, P.


Champion, A J.
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Silverman, J. (Erdington)


Chetwynd, G. R.
Keenan, W.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)


Clitherow, Dr. R.

Kendall, W. D.
Simmons, C. J.


Cobb, F. A.
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr E
Skeffington, A. M.


Cocks, F. S.
Kirkwood, D
Skinnard, F. W.


Coldrick, W.
Lavers, S.
Smith, C. (Colchester)


Collindridge, F
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)


Collins, V. J.
Leonard, W.
Sorensen, R. W.


Comyns, Dr. L.
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Sparks, J. A.


Cook, T. F.
Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Stamford, W


Corbel Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N W)
Lindgren, G. S.
Steele, T.


Corlett, Dr. J.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M.
Stephen, C.


Dagger, G.
Longden, F.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Lyne, A. W,
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
McGhee, H. G
Stubbs, A. E.


Davies, Harold (Leek)
McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Swingler, S.


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Mackay, R. W. C. (Hull, N.W.)
Sylvester, G. O.


Deer, G.
McKinlay, A. S.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


de Freitas, Geoffrey
McLeavy, F.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Delargy, Captain H. J
Macpherson, T. (Romfard)
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Diamond, J.
Mainwaring. W. H.
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Dodds, N. N.
Mellalieu, J. P. W.
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Driberg, T. E. N.
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.).
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Manning, Mrs. L. (Epping)
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)


Dye, S
Mathers, G.
Thurtle, Ernest


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Mayhew, C. P
Tiffany, S.


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Medland, H. M
Tolley, L.


Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Mellish, R. J.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Evans, John (Ogmore)
Messer, F.
Vernon, Maj. W. F.


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Mikardo, Ian
Wadsworth, G.


Ewart, R.
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R.
Walkden, E.


Fairhurst, F.
Mitchison, Major G. R.
Wallace, C. D. (Chislehurst)


Field, Gapt. W. J.
Monslow, W.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)


Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Morgan, Dr. H. B.
Watkins, T. E.


Follicle, M.
Morley, R
Watson, W. M.


Forman, J. C.
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Weitzman, D.


Foster, W. (Wigan)
Morris, P (Swansea, W.)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
Moyle, A.
Wells, W. T. (Walsall)


freeman, Peter (Newport)
Murray, J. D.
West, D. G.


Gallacher, W
Nally, W.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
Neal, H. (Clayorass)
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W


Gibson, C. W.
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Gilzean, A.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F. E. (Brentford)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B


Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Noel-Buxton, Lady
Wilkes, L.


Greenwood, A W J. (Heywood)
O'Brien, T.
Wilkins W. A.


Grey, C. F.
Oliver, G. H.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Grierson, E.
Paling, Will T. (Dewsbury)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Griffiths, D. (Rather Valley)
Pargiter, G, A
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Parker, J.
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Griffiths, W, D. (Moss Side)
Parkin, B, T.
Williamson, T.


Gunter, R. J.
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Willis, E.


Guy, W. H.
Paton, J. (Norwich)
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Hale, Leslie
Pearson, A.
Wise, Major F. J


Hall, W. G.
Peart, Capt. T. F
Woodburn, A


Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Piratin, P.
Wyatt, W.


Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Plaits-Mills. J. F. F.
Yates, V. F.


Harrison, J.
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield),
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Porter, E. (Warrington)



Haworth, J.
Porter, G (Leeds)
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Price, M Philips
Mr. Snow and Mr. Popplewell.


Hewitson, Capt. M.
Pritt, D. N.








NOES.


Astor, Hon. M.
Dower, E L. G. (Caithness)
Marsden, Capt. A


Barlow, Sir J.
Drayson, G. B.
Mellor, Sir J.


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H.
Duthie, W. S.
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Bromley-Davenport, Lt.-Col. W
Fox, Sir G.
Nicholson, G.


Bullock, Capt. M.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Scott, Lord W.


Butcher, H. W.
Haughton, S. G.
Spence, H. R.


Carson, E
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Teeling, William


Cole, T. L.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Vane, W. M. F.


Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Wheatley, Colonel M. J


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Lambert, Hon. G.



Darling, Sir W. Y.
Langford-Holt, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


De la Bère, R.
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)
Major Fraser and


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W
Marlowe, A, A. H.
Group-Captain Aitken

Amendment proposed: In page 114, line 10, at end, to insert:
'emoluments' includes any allowances, privileges or benefits, whether obtaining legally or by customary practice."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Division No. 178.]
AYES.

[12.30 a.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Ewart, R.
Lee, Miss J. (Cannock)


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Fairhurst, F.
Leonard, W.


Allen, A C (Bosworth)
Field, Captain W. J.
Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Lindgren,. G. S.


Bacon, Miss A.
Follick, M.
Lipton, Lt.-Col. M


Baird, J.
Forman, J. C.
Longden, F.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J
Foster, W. (Wigan)
Lyne, A. W.


Barton, C.
Fraser, T. (Hamilton)
McGhee, H. G.


Battley, J. R.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)
McKay, J. (Wallsend)


Bechervaise, A. E
Gallacher, W.
Mackay, R. W. G. (Hull, N.W.)


Berry, H.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.
McKinlay, A S


Beswick, F
Gibson, C. W.
McLeavy, F.


Bing, G. H. C.
Gilzean, A.
Macpherson, T. (Romford)


Blenkinsop, A
Gordon-Walker, P. C.
Mainwaring. W. H.


Blyton, W. R
Greenwood, Rt. Hon. A. (Wakefield)
Mallalieu, J. P. W.


Bottomley, A. G.
Greenwood, A. W. J (Heywood)
Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.).


Bowles, F G. (Nuneaton)
Grey, C. F.
Manning, Mrs. L (Epping)


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)

Grierson, E.
Mathers, G.


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Griffiths, D. (Bother Valley)
Mayhew, C. P.


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)
Medland, H. M.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)
Mellish, R. J.


Brown, George (Belper)
Gunter, R. J
Messer, F.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)

Guy, W. H
Mikardo, Ian


Burden, T. W
Hale, Leslie
Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R


Burke, W A.
Hall, W. G.
Mitchison, Major G. R.


Callaghan, James
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R
Monslow, W.


Carmichael, James
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)
Morgan, Dr. H. B


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Harrison, J.
Morley, R.


Champion, A. J.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville
Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)


Chetwynd, G. R.
Haworth, J.
Morris, P. (Swansea, W.)


Clitherow, Dr. R
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)
Moyle, A.


Cobb, F. A.
Hewitson, Capt. M.
Murray, J. D.


Cocks, F S.
Hobson, C. R.
Nally, W.


Coldrick, W.
Holman, P.
Neal, H (Claycross)


Collins, V. J.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)


Comyns, Dr L
House, G.
Noel-Baker, Capt. F E (Brentford)


Cook, T. F.
Hoy, J.
Noel-Buxton, Lady


Corbel, Mrs. F. K (Camb'well, N.W.)
Hubbard, T
Oliver, G. H


Corlett, Dr. J
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)
Paling, Will T (Dewsbury)


Daggar, G.
Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Palmer, A. M. F.


Daines, P.
Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W)
Pargiter, G. A.



Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Parker, J.


Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Parkin, B. T.


Davies, Harold (Leek)
Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)


Davies, Haydn (St. Pancras, S.W.)
Irving, W. J.
Paton, J (Norwich)


Deer, G
Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Peart, Capt. T. F


de Freitag, Geoffrey
Janner, B.
Piratin, P.


Delargy, Captain H. J
Jay, D. P. T.
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.


Diamond, J.
Jager, C. (Winchester)
Poole, Major Cecil (Lichfield)


Dobbie, W.
Jeger, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Popplewell, E.


Dodds, N. N.
Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Porter, E. (Warrington)


Driberg, T. E. N.
Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Porter, G. (Leeds)


Dugdale, J. (W. Bromwich)
Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Pritt, D. N.


Dye, S
Jones, P. Asterley (Hitchin)
Proctor, W. T.


Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Keenan, W.
Pursey, Cmdr. H


Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Kendall, W. D.
Randall, H. E.


Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E
Ranger, J.


Evans, John (Ogmore)
Kirkwood, D.
Rhodes, H.


Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Lavers, S.
Richards, R

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 249; Noes, 32.

Ridealgh, Mrs. M.
Stephen, C.
Watson, W. M.


Robens, A.
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)
Weitzman, D.


Roberts, Goronwy (Caernarvonshire)
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Stubbs, A. E.
West, D. C.


Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Swingler, S.
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Royle, C.
Sylvester, G. O.
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W.


Sargood, R.
Symonds, A. L.
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Scollan, T.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)
Wilcock, Group-Capt. C. A. B.


Scott-Elliot, W.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)
Wilkes, L.


Shackleton, E. A A.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)
Wilkins, W. A.


Sharp, Granville
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Shurmer, P.
Thomas, George (Cardiff)
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Thorneycroft, Harry (Clayton)
Williams, W. R. (Heston)


Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Thurtle, Ernest
Williamson, T.


Simmons, C. J.
Tiffany, S.
Willis, E.


Skeffington, A. M.
Tolley, L.
Wills, Mrs. E. A.


Skinnard, F. W.
Ungoed-Thomas, L.
Wise, Major F. J.


Smith, C. (Colchester)
Vernon, Maj. W. F.
Woodburn, A.


Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W.)
Wadsworth, G.
Wyatt, W.


Snow, Capt. J. W.
Walkden, E.
Yates, V. F.


Sorensen, R. W.
Wallace, G. D. (Chislehurst)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Sparks, J. A.
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E.)



Stamford, W.
Warbey, W. N.
TELLERS FOR THE AYES:


Steele. T.
Watkins, T. E.
Mr. Pearson and Mr. Collindridge.




NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Fox, Sir G.
Marsden, Capt. A.


Astor, Hon. M.
Fraser, H. C. P. (Stone)
Mellor, Sir J.


Barlow, Sir J.
Fraser, Sir I. (Lansdale)
Morrison, Maj. J. G. (Salisbury)


Bullock, Capt. M.
Gage, C.
Nicholson, G.


Butcher, H. W.
Haughton, S. G.
Spence, H. R.


Carson, E.
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Teeling, Willlam


Cole, T. L.
Herbert, Sir A. P.
Vane, W. M. F.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich)
Wheatley, Colonel M. J.


Darling, Sir W. Y
Lambert, Hon. G.



De la Bère, R.
Langford-Holt, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P. W.
Macpherson, Maj. N. (Dumfries)
Mr. Bromley-Davenport and


Duthie, W. S.
Marlowe, A. A. H.
Major Beamish

Amendment proposed: In page 114, line 19, at the end, to insert: "'liability' includes an obligation."—[Mr. Barnes.]

Division No. 179.]
AYES.
[12.40 a.m.


Adams, Richard (Balham)
Cocks, F. S.
Forman, J. C.


Adams, W. T. (Hammersmith, South)
Coldrick, W.
Foster, W. (Wigan)


Allen, A. C. (Bosworth)
Collins, V. J.
Freeman, Peter (Newport)


Allen, Scholefield (Crewe)
Comyns, Dr. L.
Gallacher, W.


Bacon, Miss A
Cook, T. F.
Ganley, Mrs. C. S.


Baird, J.
Corbet, Mrs. F. K. (Camb'well, N. W.)
Gilzean, A.


Barnes, Rt. Hon. A. J.
Corlett, Dr. J.
Gordon-Walker, P. C.


Barton, C.
Daggar, G.
Greenwood, A. W. J. (Heywood)


Battley, J. R.
Daines, P
Grey, C. F.


Bechervaise, A. E.
Davies, Edward (Burslem)
Grierson, E.


Berry, H.
Davies, Ernest (Enfield)
Griffiths, D. (Rother Valley)


Beswick, F.
Davies, Harold (Leek)
Griffiths, Rt. Hon. J. (Llanelly)


Bing, G. H. C.

Davies, Hadyn (St. Pancras, S. M.)
Griffiths, W. D. (Moss Side)


Blenkinsop, A.
Deer, G.
Gunter, R. J.


Blyton, W. R.
de Freitas, Geoffrey
Guy, W. H.


Boardman, H.
Delargy, Captain H. J
Hale, Leslie


Bottomley, A. G.
Diamond, J.
Hall, W. G.


Bowles, F. G. (Nuneaton)
Dobbie, W.
Hamilton, Lieut.-Col. R.


Braddock, Mrs. E. M. (L'pl, Exch'ge)
Dodds, N. N.
Hannan, W. (Maryhill)


Braddock, T. (Mitcham)
Driberg, T. E. N.
Hardy, E. A


Brook, D. (Halifax)
Dye, S
Harrison, J.


Brooks, T. J. (Rothwell)
Ede, Rt. Hon. J. C.
Hastings, Dr. Somerville


Brown, George (Belper)
Edwards, John (Blackburn)
Haworth, J.


Brown, T. J. (Ince)
Edwards, W. J. (Whitechapel)
Henderson, A. (Kingswinford)


Burden, T. W.
Evans, E. (Lowestoft)
Henderson, Joseph (Ardwick)


Burke, W. A.
Evans, John (Ogmore)
Hewitson, Capt. M.


Callaghan, James
Evans, S. N. (Wednesbury)
Hobson, C. R.


Carmichael, James
Ewart, R
Holman, P.


Castle, Mrs. B. A.
Fairhurst, F.
Holmes, H. E. (Hemsworth)


Champion, A. J.
Field, Captain W. J.
House, G


Chetwynd, G. R.
Fletcher, E. G. M. (Islington, E.)
Hoy, J.


Clitherow, Dr. R.
Follick, M.
Hubbard, T.


Cobb, F. A.
Foot, M. M.
Hudson, J. H. (Ealing, W.)

Question put, "That the Amendment be made."

The House divided: Ayes, 251; Noes, 33.

Hughes, Hector (Aberdeen, N.)
Neal, H. (Claycross)
Stamford, W


Hughes, H. D. (Wolverhampton, W.)
Nicholls, H. R. (Stratford)
Stephen, C.


Hutchinson, H. L. (Rusholme)
Noel-Baker, Capt. F E (Brantford)
Stewart, Capt. Michael (Fulham, E.)


Hynd, H. (Hackney, C.)
Noel-Buxton. Lady
Strauss, G. R. (Lambeth)


Hynd, J. B. (Attercliffe)
Oliver, G. H
Stubbs, A. E.


Irving, W. J.
Paget, R. T.
Swingler, S.


Isaacs, Rt. Hon. G. A
Paling, Will T (Dewsbury)
Sylvester, G. U


Janner, B,
Palmer, A. M. F
Symonds, A. L.


Jay, D. P. T.
Pargiter, G, A.
Taylor, H. B. (Mansfield)


Jeger, G. (Winchester)
Parker, J.
Taylor, R. J. (Morpeth)


Jager, Dr. S. W. (St. Pancras, S.E.)
Parkin, B. T.
Taylor, Dr. S. (Barnet)


Jones, D. T. (Hartlepools)
Paton, Mrs. F. (Rushcliffe)
Thomas, D. E. (Aberdare)


Jones, Elwyn (Plaistow)
Paton, J (Norwich)
Thomas, I. O. (Wrekin)


Jones, J. H. (Bolton)
Peart, Capt. T. F
Thomas, George (Cardiff)


Keenan, W.
Piratin, P.
Thorneyeroft, Harry (Clayton)


Kendall, W. D
Platts-Mills, J. F. F.
Thurtle, Ernest


King, E. M.
Poole, Major Cecill (Lichfield)
Tiffany, S.


Kinghorn, Sqn.-Ldr. E
Popplewell, E.
Tolley, L.


Lavers, S.
Porter, E. (Warrington)
Ungoed-Thomas, L.


Lee, Miss J. (Gannock)
Porter, G. (Leeds)
Vernon, Maj. W F


Leonard, W.
Pritt, D. N.
Wadsworth, G.


Lewis, A. W. J. (Upton)
Proctor, W. T
Walkden, E.


Lewis, J. (Bolton)
Pryde, D. J.
Wallace, G. D (Chisiehurst)


Lindgren, G. S.
Pursey, Cmdr. H
Wallace, H. W. (Walthamstow, E)


Lipton, Lt.-Col. M
Randall, H. E
Warbey, W. N


Longden, F.
Ranger, J.
Watkins, T. E.


Lyne, A. W.
Reid, T. (Swindon)
Watson, W. M


McGhee, H. G.
Rhodes, H.
Weitzman, D.


McKay, J. (Wallsend)
Richards, R.
Wells, P. L. (Faversham)


Mackay, R, W. G. (Hull, N.W.)
Ridealgh, Mrs. M
Wells, W. T (Walsall)


McKinlay, A. S.
Robens, A.
West, D. G.


McLeavy, F.
Roberts, Goronwy, (Caernarvonshire)
White, H. (Derbyshire, N.E.)


Macpherson, T. (Romford)
Roberts, W. (Cumberland, N.)
Whiteley, Rt. Hon. W


Mainwaring. W. H
Robertson, J. J. (Berwick)
Wigg, Col. G. E.


Manning, C. (Camberwell, N.)
Ross, William (Kilmarnock)
Wilcock, Group-Caps C A B


Manning, Mrs. L (Epping)
Royle, C.
Wilkes, L.


Mathers, G.
Sargood, R
Wilkins, W. A.


Mayhew, C. P.
Scollan, T.
Willey, F. T. (Sunderland)


Medland, H. M
Shackleton, E. A. A
Williams, D. J. (Neath)


Mellish, R J
Sharp, Granville
Williams, J. L. (Kelvingrove)


Messer, F
Shawcross, C. N. (Widnes)
Williams, W. R (Heston)


Mikardo, Ian
Shurmer, P.
Williamson, T


Millington, Wing-Comdr. E. R
Silkin, Rt. Hon. L
Willis, E.


Mitchison, Major G. R
Silverman, J. (Erdington)
Wills, Mrs. E. A


Monslow, W.
Silverman, S. S. (Nelson)
Wise, Major F J


Morgan, Dr. H. B
Simmons, C. J.
Woodburn, A


Morley, R
Skinnard, F. W.
Yates, V F


Morris, Lt.-Col. H. (Sheffield, C.)
Smith, C. (Colchester)
Younger, Hon. Kenneth


Morris, P (Swansea, W.)
Smith, S. H. (Hull, S.W)



Moyle, A.
Snow, Capt. J. W
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


Murray, J. D
Sorensen, R. W.
Mr. Pearson and Mr. Collindridge


Nally. W
Sparks. J A.





NOES.


Aitken, Hon. Max
Donner, Sqn.-Ldr. P W
marsden, Capt A


Astor, Hon. M.
Drayson, G. B.
Mellor, Sir J.


Barlow, Sir J.
Duthie, W. S.
Morrison. Mat J G. (Salisbury)


Beamish, Maj. T. V. H
Fox, Sir G.
Nicholson, G


Bromley-Davenport, Lt -Col. W
Fraser, Maj. H. C. P. (Stone)
Scott, Lord W


Bullock, Capt M
Fraser, Sir I. (Lonsdale)
Spence, H. R.


Carson, E
Haughton, S. G.
Teeling, William


Cole, T. L
Henderson, John (Cathcart)
Vane, W M F.


Corbett, Lieut.-Col. U. (Ludlow)
Holmes, Sir J. Stanley (Harwich
Wheatley. Colonel M. J.


Crosthwaite-Eyre, Col. O. E.
Lambert, Hon. G



Darling, Sir W. Y
Langford-Holt, J.
TELLERS FOR THE NOES:


De la Bère, R.
Marlowe, A. A H
Mr. Butcher and Sir A. Herbert.

12.45 a.m.

Mr. S. Silverman: On a point of Order. I want to ask for your guidance, Mr. Speaker. Standing Order, No. 143, gives you power under certain circumstances to do certain things. That is the Standing Order which provides that if it appears to you that a Division is unnecessarily claimed, you can take certain action. I want to draw your attention to the fact—

Mr. Speaker: Why waste the time of the House now? Everything is going all right.
Further Amendments made:

In page 114, line 29, leave out from first "a," to end of line 30, and insert "county borough."

In page 115, line 21, at end, insert:
and any sums payable on or in respect of he leath of that person."—[Mr. Barnes.]

CLAUSE 121.—(Application to Scotland.)

Amendments made: In page 117, line 21, at end, insert:
(3) For any reference to the Minister of Health (except in section thirty-four) there shall be substituted a reference to the Secretary of State.

In line 24, at end, insert:
(4) Any question or dispute which is required by this Act to be determined by arbitration (other than a question or dispute required to be determined by the arbitration tribunal) shall be determined by a single arbiter appointed, in default of agreement, by the Court of Session or the sheriff on the application of either party to the question or dispute. At any stage of the proceedings in any such arbitration, the arbiter may, and shall if so directed by the Court of Session, state a case for the opinion of that court on any question of law arising in the arbitration.

In line 28, at end, insert:
(5) Section thirty-one shall have effect as if in Subsection (3) thereof paragraph (a) of the proviso were omitted.

In line 29, leave out "the," and insert "any."—[Mr. Barnes.]

THIRD SCHEDULE.—(Bodies whose undertakings are transferred to Commission.)

Amendments made: In page 121, line 24, after "Western," insert "Railways."

In line 33, at end, insert "Committee." In line 44, after "Western," insert "Railways."

In line 45, leave out "Railways," and insert "Railway Companies."

In line 47, at end, insert "Committee."

In line 48, leave out "Railway," and insert "Line Committee."

Leave out line 50, and insert:
The Midland and North-Eastern Railway Companies Committee.

In line 51, leave out "Line," and insert "Committee."

In page 122, line 20, leave out "the undertaking of."

In line 20, leave out "Committee," and insert "Undertaking."—[Mr. Barnes.]

FOURTH SCHEDULE.—(Securities to be replaced by British Transport Stock.)

Amendments made: In page 123, leave out lines 52 and 53.

In page 124, line 25, leave out "West Cornwall Railway Company," and insert:
Great 'Western, Bristol and Exeter and South Devon Railway Companies.

In line 25, leave out:
Great Western Bristol and Exeter and South Devon Railway Companies.

In page 125, line 2, after "securities," insert:
not being securities guaranteed by the Treasury.

In line 6, after "The," insert "Ross and Monmouth Railway Company."

In line 6, leave out "Loans," and insert "Redeemable debentures of £100 each."

In page 126, line 3, leave out "Company, and insert "Committee."

In line 3, leave out "5% Guaranteed," and insert "West Cornwall guaranteed 5%."

In line 4, after "Railway," insert "Company,"

In line 20, leave out "4% terminable mortgages."

In line 40, leave out "5," and insert "3 ⅛."

In line 51, after "Ordinary," insert "consolidated."

In line 59, at end, insert:

"Part III

Securities guaranteed by the Treasury.

The London Passenger London Transport Transport Board 3% guaranteed stock

(1967–1972).'

[Mr. Barnes.]

FIFTH SCHEDULE.—(Issue of British Transport Stock in satisfaction of Railway or Canal compensation.)

Amendments made: In page 127, line 8, leave out "Part I," and insert "Parts I and III."

In page 128, line 33, after "transferred," insert "and transmitted."—[Mr. Barnes.]

EIGHTH SCHEDULE.—(Orders giving effect to Schemes.)

Amendment made: In page 132, line 15, leave out "urban or rural," and insert "county."—[Mr. Barnes.]

TENTH SCHEDULE.—(Provisions as to the Transport Tribunal.)

Amendment made: In page 136, line 25, at end, insert:
(5) The President of the Transport Tribunal may, if he thinks fit so to do in relation to any class of proceedings, select one or more persons from the said special panel and appoint them with or without a permanent member or permanent members of the tribunal to hear and determine all proceedings of that. class,


not being proceedings in relation to which other provisions may have been or may thereafter be made under sub-paragraph (1) of this paragraph; and where such an appointment is made, then, until it is revoked by the President of the tribunal, the preceding provisions of this paragraph shall have effect in relation to any proceedings of that class, not being such proceedings as aforesaid, as if the said person or persons had been selected and appointed under the said sub-paragraph (1) to hear and determine those proceedings."— [Mr. Barnes.]

Bill to be read the Third time this day, and to be printed. [Bill 68.]

BISCUITS (CHARGES) ORDER

Resolved:
That the Biscuits (Charges) (Amendment) Order, 1947 (S.R. &amp; 0. 1947, No. 522), dated 24th March, 1947, made by the Treasury under Section 2 of the Emergency Powers (Defence) Act, 1939, and Section 5 of the Supplies and Services (Transitional Powers) Act, 1945, a copy of which Order was presented to this House on 27th March, be approved."—[Mr. Glenvil Hall.]

SUNDAY CINEMATOGRAPH ENTERTAINMENTS

Resolved:
That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 2932, to the City of Bath, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th - April, be approved.

Resolved:

That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section r of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Boston, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th April, be approved.

Resolved:
That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the County Borough of Eastbourne, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th April, be approved.

Resolved:
That the Order made by the Secretary of State for the Home Department, extending Section 1 of the Sunday Entertainments Act, 1932, to the Borough of Ryde, a copy of which Order was presented on 28th April, be approved."— [Mr. Oliver.]

Orders of the Day — GERMAN EXTERNAL ASSETS

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That this House do now adjourn."—[Mr. Simmons.]

12.54 a.m.

Mr. Martin Lindsay: I am not accustomed to reading speeches in this House, but, as this Debate will be reported in the foreign Press, I hope that I may be forgiven if I adhere closely to my typescript. Great Britain is today spending £120 million a year, including dollar resources we desperately need ourselves, to feed and rehabilitate the British zone in Germany. Fantastic as this is, it is even more fantastic when we consider that Germany invested many times this sum, before and during the war, in neutral countries. German assets in the Argentine and other South American countries, in Switzerland, in Sweden, in Spain and Portugal, amount to several million pounds, and if there is any justice in the world these great sums should be made available. It is the Germans abroad who today should be feeding their own compatriots in Germany, and not the British people, themselves impoverished by the war which those same Germans started.
May I take first the case of Argentina, in which German investments were heavily increased by transfers during the war and which amount today to at least £100 million? The Blue Book published in February, 1946, under the authority of the U.S.A. State Department, lists the names of the most prominent German industries in the Argentine which still remain in Nazi hands, such as, for example, I.G. Farben, Siemens-Schuckert, Tubos Mannesmann, Thyssen, and so on. It is quite true that, by the decree of 24th January this year, the Argentine Government has nationalised 60—a mere fraction—of the 393 officially listed German industrial concerns, but even then there appears to be no intention whatever of making the wealth thus secured available for the purchase by the British taxpayer of the Argentine food exports which are required for Germany. Are we expected to take the risk that the remaining 333 German industries and the German assets hidden in the Argentine may be left. under some form of cloaking, in the hands of the former Nazis or of some of their sympathisers, and made available to make preparations for World War III?
Let me quote once more from the U.S. Blue Book to which I have referred. This is what it says:
In Argentina the Germans have constructed a complete duplicate of the economic


structure for war which they had in Germany. They possess today … the economic organisation … which they need to provide a base for the reconstruction of German aggressive power. The industries essential to warfare.. exist in Argentina and are controlled by Germans.
What I hope the Minister may be able to tell us tonight is, where in these circumstances, do His Majesty's Government stand? After all, we agreed at Potsdam to take, in conjunction with the U.S.A. and Russia, all appropriate measures to uncover and liquidate such German assets. Are we now to understand that our need for Argentine exports is so great, and American business interests in the Argentine so powerful, that the Potsdam Resolutions are to be forgotten?
Now let me refer to Switzerland, in which capital at the disposal of the Nazis is also very large. In spite of the Potsdam Conference, Great Britain, U.S.A. and France signed an agreement with Switzerland in Washington on 25th May, 190, to the effect that only the assets in Switzerland which belonged to Germans or German concerns at present resident in Germany should be examined, and that only 50 per cent. of those assets should be placed at the disposal of the Control Commission as reparations. Thus all the assets of Germans or German companies which are residing in Switzerland itself and the assets in Switzerland belonging to Germans or German firms in other countries escape the control since it is only all German companies actually in Germany which are, under this agreement, being examined. In addition, it was decided that the task of locating and drawing up the list of these German possessions should be confided to the Swiss Compensation Office only and that the Allied Control Commission should have no right to investigate. But as a large part of the German assets had been registered—as in Sweden—under the names of foreign individuals or foreign non-German concerns it is of course very likely that the total of German assets listed by the Swiss Compensation Office only represents a very small part of the real figure.
The Swiss Compensation Office declared that German capital in Switzerland amounted to about £50 million, of which about £25 million should come under discussion and, since the Washington agreement provided that the ex-Allied nations should receive only 50 per cent. of this

amount, the Allies may receive £12 million only. This is supposed to cover the value of 500 German industrial and trading concerns in Switzerland as well as all German bank accounts, art treasures and gold which has been looted from occupied territories and transferred to Switzerland by the Nazis. It is perhaps not surprising that evidence already indicates that most of the declarations made by the Germans have been false or incomplete. The Swiss Government have stated that one-half of the German assets in Switzerland which did not belong to Germans actually residing in Germany could not be handed over to the Allies for reparations purposes because this might deprive 70,000 Germans now living in Switzerland of their means of existence. But it has never been made clear how much of this capital belonged to the Germans residing in Switzerland and how much belonged to those Germans residing in the Argentine and other countries. I think one may well be permitted to ask why the Swiss Government has not taken the same steps as the Belgian Government, to examine bank accounts and the capital of those Swiss Germans and see what increments were improperly acquired from the Nazis in the course of the war.
What I hope the Minister will tell us is why His Majesty's Government signed such a very unsatisfactory agreement with Switzerland and Sweden It appears to be perfectly clear that a wholly unsatisfactory compromise was agreed to because the Swiss delegate refused to yield. In fact, the U.S. delegate has since expressed his dissatisfaction with the agreement, saying that no agreement could be satisfactory when some parties have refused to yield any points. It is also pertinent to inquire whether the agreement now being discussed with Portugal is going to be equally unsatisfactory, and what agreements we contemplate signing with Argentina and other countries of South America regarding these German assets. Recently the International Committee for the Study of European Questions have published a statement on the lines of what I have been saying tonight. This resulted in a semi-official reply from the Swiss Government to the effect that they are waiting for proof resulting from exAllied inquiries in Germany regarding the presence in Switzerland of dangerous and guilty Germans, that hitherto no such


proof has reached them, and that they will wait until the end of this year.
I trust very much that His Majesty's Government will see that such particulars are forthcoming, for they must surely be aware that many well-known Nazis, such as for example the ex-German Ambassador to Spain and the ex-German Consul General to Switzerland, are living luxuriously and spending lavishly in Switzerland today. I was in Switzerland just before Easter and I asked very reputable Swiss people what the position was, and they said quite frankly that it is a fact that many well-known Nazis—I was even quoted their addresses and the registration numbers of their cars—are living luxuriously and spending lavishly in Switzerland today, which I maintain is a scandal of the first magnitude.
I suggest that British diplomacy today can apply itself to few tasks so urgent as the liquidation of these German external assets. It was partly because the Germans succeeded in 1919 in keeping their assets hidden abroad that they were able to rise again so rapidly to a dominant position and to prepare for the last war. A similar state appears to exist today. I say that the fact that the victorious Allied nations should be asked to use their own resources and, in our own case, to lower our own national standard of living, in order to buy goods for the Germans, is a most extraordinary state of affairs. But while German citizens and German organisations still retain huge sums in foreign countries, it is utterly indefensible. I hope the Minister will be able to make it clear to us tonight beyond all possible doubt that His Majesty's Government have done, axe doing and will continue to do everything in their power in close co-operation with our former Allies at least to mitigate what is an intolerable situation.

1.7 a.m.

Mr. Paget: The hon. Member asks why we have made such a bad bargain with Switzerland over these assets. Unfortunately the situation is that the law is all on the side of Switzerland. International law has always laid down that a country of origin cannot demand from another country the wealth taken into it by emigrés from that Government. When the Russians came to this country at the time of the revolution, the

Bolsheviks demanded the money which they had taken out of Russia. We firmly refused to hand it over. When the Jews fled from Germany to this country and took their money with them, we firmly refused to hand it over, basing ourselves upon the international law that emigrés would always have their money protected in a country to which they had taken it. That, in international law, is unfortunately the position of the Germans in Switzerland. They are emigrés from the Military Government which we have established in Germany, and international law is unfortunately upon the side of the Swiss and the Argentines. Therefore, when we try to make arrangements with those countries, we can only take such terms as they will give us.

1.9 a.m.

Mr. Driberg: When my hon. Friend and the Foreign Office are applying their minds further to the extremely interesting and important matter which has been raised by the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay), I wonder if they would also just take a look at the position in Mexico. I happened to be there a few months ago, and I was rather shocked to discover how very many extremely prominent and wealthy Nazi Germans were still at large and more or less in hiding in that country. Many hundreds of them had originally been on the United States black-list of undesirable Germans who were to be deported from Mexico and returned to Europe possibly for action and for trial, or at any rate for examination, but by some mysterious means that black-list was whittled down again and again until eventually only something like two dozen Germans were deported and the rest were able to go on living in great luxury and complete freedom in Mexico, largely, I am afraid, because they were able to bribe people very high up on the Mexican administration.

1.10 a.m.

Mr. Francis Noel-Baker: Before my hon. Friend replies, I would raise two brief points. First, in the case of ex-German assets in Spain which have now been taken over and are being run under Allied supervision, are His Majesty's Government making quite certain that those assets, when they are in the form of companies or enterprises are being cleaned up, and that the pro-Fascist, pro-German or pro-Italian


Spanish employees previously employed in those enterprises under German control have been removed from their jobs? I have particularly in mind a shipping concern which was bought up by the Germans during the war which is now under Allied control and about which there have been consistent complaints. The same Spanish employees put in by the Germans are being retained by the Allied Control. Secondly, I would like to ask whether the representations which I have been told by the Foreign Office have been made repeatedly for the expropriation of wanted German nationals from Spain have produced results in the recent past.

1.11 a.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Mayhew): I think it is clear from the short but extremely interesting Debate that we have had that the House is indebted to the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay) for not being deterred by the unusually hard work we have been having this evening from bringing up this matter on the Adjournment. I agree warmly with a substantial part of what he has said; in particular, with the principle he enunciated that by far the strongest moral claim to these assets goes to those countries which suffered crippling losses in defeating the Germans, and that of those countries, the strongest claim by far should go to those countries which are now out of their own pockets paying to keep Germany's body and soul together. I also endorse what the hon. Member has said about the security aspect of this problem. I endorse his remarks about 1919; in fact, before the war the Germans' economic penetration into the economies of several countries undoubtedly helped to build up their war potential and was of service to them a,t different times and in different countries throughout the war. And simply as a matter of security and of the future prospects of world peace, this is an important matter to which we must pay very careful attention.
Perhaps I may put the matter in perspective by going back and trying to dissect briefly the history of the German external assets problem. At Potsdam the occupying authorities were made responsible for marshalling and disposing of German external assets in countries other than the United Nations countries which had fought in the war. And at Potsdam

also the reparations shares of the United States, the United Kingdom and France were determined as coming from the Western zone of Germany and from appropriate external German assets in countries not including Bulgaria, Finland, Hungary, Rumania and Eastern Austria. Soviet Russia renounced her claims to German external assets, except for those countries that I have listed.
The next step after that was the Paris Reparations Agreement in 1945, signed by 18 nations, which thereby established the Inter-Allied Reparations Agency and made themselves members of the Agency by that fact. The Agreement also stated the percentages of reparations due to each individual country and appointed the Big Three—the United Kingdom, the United States, and France—to negotiate agreements on behalf of the others with the neutral countries. These agreements were planned to eliminate German ownership and German control of overseas assets and to make the proceeds available to the group members of the I.A.R.A. The three big Powers were also made responsible for negotiating for the control of gold looted from occupied territories which was found in the ownership and control of neutral countries. So much for the history of the matter to put the remainder into perspective. The hon. Member made disparaging remarks on the Agreement with Switzerland.
The fact is that we are dealing with sovereign nations in this matter, nations which have their own ideas about the legal aspects of these things, and which have their own controls over German assets, and we have to make the best bargain we can. This Agreement, which was signed in May last year, laid down the following conditions: That the Swiss Government undertakes to liquidate property of every description owned or controlled by Germans in Germany; that they will make every effort with Allied assistance to uncover the camouflaging transactions which might hide the control and ownership of German nationals; that 50 per cent. of the proceeds go to the Allies and 50 per cent. to the claims of the Swiss themselves against Germany.
They also undertake that assets of German nationals repatriated to Germany should go into the pool. They also promise that all possible steps would be taken to prevent the resale of German interests


in assets that have been liquidated. Finally, and this point was perhaps omitted by the hon. Member, they would pay 250 million Swiss francs in gold as restitution for looted gold in Swiss territory. That was not covered by the sum quoted by the hon. Member for the settlement concerned. The identification of the assets is proceeding and has been speeded up a great deal since the signing of the Agreement, and machinery has been set up now to carry out the Agreement in all its detail.
We have also concluded a very similar agreement with Sweden and the particular negotiations there resulted in an Agreement that after the deduction of Swedish claims the balance should go as follows: 75 million kroner to the reserve of, A.K.A., 150 millions to a special account in the Swedish Riksbank to finance purchases in Sweden or elsewhere for essential commodities for German economy—those particular funds will go where I think there is a strong moral case that they should go, to helping to finance essential imports into Germany—and 50 million kroner will go to the rehabilitation and resettlement of non-repatriable victims of German action. Those are the main details of the Swedish Agreement, which follows in detail the Swiss Agreement, and it was negotiated on the same principles. It had certain other quite favourable and useful sides to it, but I will not go into it in detail.
The hon. Member made an estimate of Argentine-German assets and I should like to be able to give a fair estimate of what they come to throughout the world, in Sweden, Switzerland and Latin America, but it is not possible to give any useful estimate of the total involved. I understand that even in this country, after eight years of controlling German assets, we cannot estimate what our Custodian of German Property holds in German assets. Nevertheless, I would give a very tentative estimate of those held in the European neutral countries, that the estimate might come to something over £70 million. But the £100 million which the hon. Member gave for the Argentine I cannot endorse. I would not like to give an estimate myself, nor could I endorse the figures of Nazi industries in the Argentine. Again it seemed larger than our estimate would be, from the strikingly detailed number of industries given. However in the general principles of what the

hon. Member said I do not want to disagree at all. But there are these difficulties—

Mr. M. Lindsay: Those facts were taken from the United States Blue Book, which was the result of a very careful investigation by the United States.

Mr. Mayhew: I am sorry, but perhaps we have different definitions between us. I was defining industries, and perhaps we have come to different terms. As I said,. the main difficulty here is that we are dealing with sovereign countries. These sovereign countries have their own view of the legal aspects of this question, they have their own control over their German assets, and they have their own claims against Germany both on behalf of themselves and on behalf of their nationals. When the hon. Member says, "Why did we sign the agreement?" the straight answer is that we did it because it was the best bargain we could get.
I do not disguise the fact that I feel strongly that our moral claim to these assets is very strong indeed, but we have set up the machinery, we have played a leading part in this tripartite inter-Allied negotiating body and we have pressed, and will press, very strongly for our rights in this matter. The hon. Member for Brentford and Chiswick (Mr. F. NoelBaker) asked me for an assurance about Spain. In Spain and Portugal we are at the moment negotiating these agreements. I could not give a direct answer without notice to the particular point he raised, with which obviously the House will be in warm sympathy. I will undertake to look into it and let him know, if he will allow me, a little later. On the question of Mexico, again I cannot answer without notice, but perhaps I may communicate with my hon. Friend the Member for Maldon (Mr. Driberg) and let him know the position there.
In Latin America, by agreement between ourselves and the French, the United States are taking the main part in the negotiations. The matter is under constant review there. We are in constant touch with the United States Government and we are constantly asserting our claims.
I have tried to suggest to the House that in general we are not satisfied that our full moral claims to these assets are being met, but that we are keenly and conscientiously trying the best we can to make the fairest bargain we can in this matter.

Mr. Leslie Hale: Would the Minister deal with the point raised by the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. M. Lindsay), which has been widely circulated and commented upon, that many prominent Nazis are still living in luxury in Switzerland and other formerly neutral countries?

Mr. Mayhew: We are trying in every way to get the repatriation of obnoxious Nazis not only from Switzerland but other neutral countries. It was part of the

agreement we made with Sweden that they should speed up the repatriation of Nazis declared obnoxious. The final right of extradition is very jealously guarded by those countries themselves. We must remember that, while our views are made plain, they will have the final word in the matter.

Question put, and agreed to.

Adjourned accordingly at Twenty-three Minutes past One o'Clock.